BR blue pre TOPS skinhead 31/1s

[Guest Phil]

A couple of years ago I bought a weathered blue Hornby 31111 with the intention of renumbering it to 31121. My modelling focus has changed more towards green diesels with the odd blue pre TOPS example.

 

I'm now seeking a realistic prototype to model it as - based on an ER loco which would have worked steel and coke into the Black Country. I've seen photos of pre TOPS blue 31s and 37s working an 8Z29 coke special into Spring Vale steelworks which I'm guessing originated from the ER.

 

My research lead me to compile a few details of this batch of locos, specifically the /1s rather than the /0 "toffeeapples", and I thought I'd share with you the little that I know.

 

The batch i'm referring to are D5520-D5529 and D5535/D5539/D5543/D5547/D5551/D5552/D5555/D5556/D5559 and D5562.

 

Working from Jim Grindlay's book these locos were delivered between February and November 1959 to variously Stratford, March and Norwich sheds. In 1966 five had migrated to Tinsley, reducing to four the following year and three in 1968 - 5535 5539 5547.

 

I don't have any allocation information until ten years later in 1978 when the only "skinhead" 31/1 allocated to Yorkshire was 31111, the former D5529 - based at Holbeck. Interestingly though, John Woolley states in one of his very useful history reports that a shed bash on 1st May 1971 found D5543 D5555 D5556 stabled at Tinsley and D5552 stabled at Wath.

 

From this information I can probably narrow my selection down to one of these four locos but I really could do with some help with livery. Does anyone have repaint dates for when these four locos which became 31125 31137 31138 and 31134 respectively, received BR blue please ?

 

 

I must admit that there doesn't seem to be half so much online information relating to class 31s as there does for classes like 37 and 47 and the Derby Sulzers. I did glean that 31108 wasn't renumbered from 5526 until February 1974 so I am guessing the loco received blue prior to TOPS numbers.

 

Certainly a minefield this one, but would welcome any help, discussion and links.

 

 

[Flood]

Looking at the 1969 locoshed book 5528, 5535 and 5539 had gone to Old Oak Common. The rest of 5520 - 5529 were at March, 5543 was the only one you've listed at Tinsley and 5547, 5551, 5552, 5555, 5556, 5559 and 5562 were all at Immingham. I'd have thought that the March and Immingham batches could just as easily have turned up - someone else may know different.

 

I have got the Railway Observers from 1969 to 1979 but I know that they're not 100% correct for liveries. Russell Saxton seems to be the guy on here to ask about liveries.

[waggy]

Looking at the 1969 locoshed book 5528, 5535 and 5539 had gone to Old Oak Common. The rest of 5520 - 5529 were at March, 5543 was the only one you've listed at Tinsley and 5547, 5551, 5552, 5555, 5556, 5559 and 5562 were all at Immingham. I'd have thought that the March and Immingham batches could just as easily have turned up - someone else may know different.

 

I have got the Railway Observers from 1969 to 1979 but I know that they're not 100% correct for liveries. Russell Saxton seems to be the guy on here to ask about liveries.

 

On a shed visit to Tinsley on 1st August 1970, i noted 5552, 5555 and 5559

[Russell Saxton]

Hi Phil, got the PM.

 

I dont know exactly what date you were planning to model but if we look at the 1968-72 period that should cover most bases.

If I list the locos, allocation according to the 1969/70/1/2 locosheds and livery that should help.

 

1969 5520-9 March, 5535 WR, 5539 WR, 5543 Norwich, 5547 Finsbury park, 5551/2/5/6/9/62 Immingham,

1970 5528 had gone to Old oak, 5543 now Tinsley, 5547 now Immingham, rest as was.

1971 5551/2/5/6/9/62 all now Tinsley, rest as was

1972 5520-2 now Holbeck, 5525 Stratford, 5529 Gateshead, 5547 March, 5551/2/5/6 back to Immingham, 5559 Thornaby, 5562 Immingham

 

Those dates are dec 68, nov 69, nov 70 and October 71 respectively.

 

Liveries may prove to be more difficult to tie down exactly as Im still wading through piles of gen for 31s.

Only one 31 made it to TOPS numbering in green and that was 5827 which became 31294. It was renumbered 16/2/74 and went into works on 6 April so ran for a just a few weeks in traffic. I have never seen a single photo of this loco and would dearly love to so if anyone has one......

the second to last was 5818 which was renumbered 31286 at its general overhaul in April 1974 but never ran in green as 31286. Photo in june 1974 modern railways.

 

31s wore a multitude of liveries. All received yellow panels on green and had D prefixed serif numbers. Rail blue started in autumn 1966 with D5649 and from early 1967 many green locos received FYE, many also had arrow symbols applied and the numbers were a mixture of serif and asymmetrical stles. D prefixes were dropped from sept 68 and all rail blue repaints after lacked them, many previous repaints lost them also.

Up to 1971 blue locos had cabside arrows and bodyside numbers, thereafter they were given cabside numbers and a central bodyside arrow and all got this by 1975, a few running in TOPS in the old style.

 

If we take jan 1 1970 as a reference point, at that time about half the class were blue and most (not all) green locos were GFYE, some with lions and some arrows.

 

On 1/1/70 the skinheads 5521/8/35/39/47/52 were all Rail Blue in the old style with cabside arrows and bodyside numbers, the rest were GFYE with the possible exception of 5526 for which i have no clue! It was blue by 1971. All lost the D if they ever had it.

 

5551/62 had lion emblems, the former with asymmetrical numbers and mno d, the latter with d prefixed serif numbersthe others as far as I am aware had double arrows on green.

 

dates to blue

 

5543 Some confusion-my records say still green 4/2/70 but also early blue with D-both cant be correct! I shall check further.

5552 Blue early on by July 1968 early style of course with a d which may have been dropped later.

5555 Blue early style without a d by summer 71, green beforehand

5556 late green survivor as late as July 1973, GFYE of course and latterly with asymmetrical no D numbers. I dont know when it got these.

 

Hope this lot helps, happy to go into more deatil if you need it.

[Guest Phil]

Russell. That is fantastic work and just what I wanted. I'm guessing 5552 will be the loco for me, but one further question. Do you think blue locos would have received the standard numbers or maybe they received serifed vinyls first ? I know other classes had a mixture in the late 1960s. I am thinking of 1970 as my dateline for this particular loco.

 

Thanks again Russell.

[Rugd1022]

Phil, I don't want to through a spanner in the works but if you're using Hornby's 31 111 as a starting point for your pre-Tops blue 'un you might have to get the scalpel out... IIRC that body moulding has the bodyside steps plated over and possibly the roof boiler hatch too.... as far as I can make out these areas weren't plated over till at least 1975, by which time of course the class were well into their Tops numbered phase.... !

 

Fascinating thread though!

Nidge

[Russell Saxton]

Russell. That is fantastic work and just what I wanted. I'm guessing 5552 will be the loco for me, but one further question. Do you think blue locos would have received the standard numbers or maybe they received serifed vinyls first ? I know other classes had a mixture in the late 1960s. I am thinking of 1970 as my dateline for this particular loco.

 

Thanks again Russell.

 

As far as I know all blue locos excepting the early experiment D5578 had standard asymmetrical numbers. All locos repainted up to at least spring 1971 had cabside arrows and bodyside numbers

 

Go here http://grahame910.fotopic.net/

 

And there are shots of many locos in blue, GFYE and GSYP. None of 5552 sadly but there is one of D5649 the first (by some margin) Rail Blue 31.

[Russell Saxton]

As was said, I think it would be reasonable to assume you could see any March, Tinsley or even York or Immingham 31 in the west midlands.

 

Coke did come (among other places) from Avenue at Hasland, Derbyshire which was just in the ER and i'd expect Tinsley to provide the power but it could have been Toton or even Westhouses, Barrow Hill or Shirebrook using outstabled locos.

 

I lived in the late 60s/early 70s on the erewash valley line and we saw lots of 31s on coal, coke etc and they were more often than not from March.

[cb900f]

Russell

Not wishing to be pedantic but the ER/LMR boundary was at Horns Bridge just south of Chesterfield station. However still agree with your comments with regards to depots providing the loco resources.

 

Pete

[Russell Saxton]

Russell

Not wishing to be pedantic but the ER/LMR boundary was at Horns Bridge just south of Chesterfield station. However still agree with your comments with regards to depots providing the loco resources.

 

Pete

 

Yes that's true. It was further north than Avenue.

[Pennine MC]

...dates to blue

 

5543 Some confusion-my records say still green 4/2/70 but also early blue with D-both cant be correct! I shall check further.

 

 

Courtesy of cabsaab - the date may be coincidence, who knows

[EHertsGER]

Chaps

 

I have a feeling I have just created a 'faux pas' that will require some frantic scraping and refittting, so...

 

s

...dammit!

 

Is there any chance a 'Skinhead made it into blue livery with the Mirrlees engines still installed? I think I know the answer ('No') as it would seem logical that, while EE'ing them someone should give them the once round with the blue paint and vice versa...

 

If, however, some (one?? Ideally a 'red circle') did make it that far, I am guessing sans serif 'D' prefixed number...some time in '68, perhaps? So, which one(s)?

 

Otherwise a nice newly painted blue roof is going to get a couple of big 'oles in it tomorrow. I know it isn't a big job, its the emotional side of it when considering five beautiful coats of Railmatch blue that went on so well in the warm weather last week...(chiz)

 

C'est la vie...suffice to say I am peering at a sea of green in a effort to avoid these kind of mistakes on the next one...5624 c Feb/71 (any tips, apart from the grass tufts in the buffer beam...)

 

Best,

Marcu

Edited May 4, 2015 by EHertsGER

[EHertsGER]

Chaps

I have a feeling I have just created a 'faux pas' that will require some frantic scraping and refittting, so...

simage.jpg

...dammit!

Is there any chance a 'Skinhead made it into blue livery with the Mirrlees engines still installed? I think I know the answer ('No') as it would seem logical that, while EE'ing them someone should give them the once round with the blue paint and vice versa...

If, however, some (one?? Ideally a 'red circle') did make it that far, I am guessing sans serif 'D' prefixed number...some time in '68, perhaps? So, which one(s)?

Otherwise a nice newly painted blue roof is going to get a couple of big 'oles in it tomorrow. I know it isn't a big job, its the emotional side of it when considering five beautiful coats of Railmatch blue that went on so well in the warm weather last week...(chiz)

C'est la vie...suffice to say I am peering at a sea of green in a effort to avoid these kind of mistakes on the next one...5624 c Feb/71 (any tips, apart from the grass tufts in the buffer beam...)

Best,

Marcu

I refer anyone reading this to my other posts as re-writing findings to date is a bit mcuh this time of night...

[Phil Bullock]

Hi Phil

 

Have gone down this route with 5528. Backdating the 31111 body shell could involve boiler footsteps and filler, nose end doors and body side rib depending on chosen loco

 

Coming at it the other way and updating a 31/0 still involved the rib (Hornbys painted on their green loco), grille in engine room door and zorst ports

 

See #374 in this thread - http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/11410-abbotswood-junction-including-prototype-photos-5528-plus-wagons/page-15- not perfect but can live with it!

 

Cheers

 

Phil

[EHertsGER]

Chaps

I have a feeling I have just created a 'faux pas' that will require some frantic scraping and refittting, so...

simage.jpg

...dammit!

Is there any chance a 'Skinhead made it into blue livery with the Mirrlees engines still installed? I think I know the answer ('No') as it would seem logical that, while EE'ing them someone should give them the once round with the blue paint and vice versa...

If, however, some (one?? Ideally a 'red circle') did make it that far, I am guessing sans serif 'D' prefixed number...some time in '68, perhaps? So, which one(s)?

Otherwise a nice newly painted blue roof is going to get a couple of big 'oles in it tomorrow. I know it isn't a big job, its the emotional side of it when considering five beautiful coats of Railmatch blue that went on so well in the warm weather last week...(chiz)

C'est la vie...suffice to say I am peering at a sea of green in a effort to avoid these kind of mistakes on the next one...5624 c Feb/71 (any tips, apart from the grass tufts in the buffer beam...)

Best,

Marcu

There, that's better...

 

 

Best,

Marcus

[18B]

As was said, I think it would be reasonable to assume you could see any March, Tinsley or even York or Immingham 31 in the west midlands.

 

Coke did come (among other places) from Avenue at Hasland, Derbyshire which was just in the ER and i'd expect Tinsley to provide the power but it could have been Toton or even Westhouses, Barrow Hill or Shirebrook using outstabled locos.

 

I lived in the late 60s/early 70s on the erewash valley line and we saw lots of 31s on coal, coke etc and they were more often than not from March.

 

Avenue was supplied initially by Hasland until that shut and then a few locos stabled there for a while afterwards until coming from Westhouses,

 

buit it received locos from many places,

 

Barrow Hill men on export coal and bringing in coal from their local collieries.

 

Westhouses with coal from Rufford and Clipstone via the ex MR's acess from the south and Pye Bridge.

 

Toton with traffic out and in

 

Shirebrook with coal from Welbeck over the Clown branch!

 

Was a really interesting place back in its day.

[Phil Bullock]

And

 

As was said, I think it would be reasonable to assume you could see any March, Tinsley or even York or Immingham 31 in the west midlands.

Coke did come (among other places) from Avenue at Hasland, Derbyshire which was just in the ER and i'd expect Tinsley to provide the power but it could have been Toton or even Westhouses, Barrow Hill or Shirebrook using outstabled locos.

I lived in the late 60s/early 70s on the erewash valley line and we saw lots of 31s on coal, coke etc and they were more often than not from March.

 

And not common but certainly Brush Type 2s from those same depots used to get down as far as Gloucester before the WR had its own allocation....

 

Phil

[GERARDTCC]

Just found this thread, about 10 years too late !! Dates to blue are as follows

31125 22/8/68

31134 26/4/68

31137 11/4/70

31138 23/8/73

 

I'm after a picture of D5529 between 14/1/67 and when it went blue on 7/5/68 if anyone can help !