Climate Change - Household Pets are a bigger problem than you may imagine.

[Joseph_Pestell]

I was interested to note from my French electricity bill that 86% of French energy is supplied by nuclear. Now I don't like that because we still don't know, 70 years down the line, how to safely store/dispose of nuclear waste. But that train has gone and you can't turn it off easily.

So, despite the massive numbers of wind turbines (and solar farms) in the French countryside, very little is being produced from renewables (and most of that is hydro). Many of the wind turbines are not in operation for much of the time.

I don't get the economics of this!

 

[AndyID]

1 hour ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

I was interested to note from my French electricity bill that 86% of French energy is supplied by nuclear. Now I don't like that because we still don't know, 70 years down the line, how to safely store/dispose of nuclear waste. But that train has gone and you can't turn it off easily.

So, despite the massive numbers of wind turbines (and solar farms) in the French countryside, very little is being produced from renewables (and most of that is hydro). Many of the wind turbines are not in operation for much of the time.

I don't get the economics of this!

 

 

It's most likely because the nuclear stations are capable of handling most the base-load at that time. It's fairly easy to turn solar and wind generation off and on as demand varies but nuclear generation takes a lot of time to turn off and on.

 

That's why it's better to use solar and wind to charge "hydrogen batteries". It's not an efficient process but if the energy is otherwise going to waste, who cares? Captured hydrogen can be converted back into electric power on demand easily and efficiently.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Just now, AndyID said:

 

It's most likely because the nuclear stations are capable of handling most the base-load at that time. It's fairly easy to turn solar and wind generation off and on as demand varies but nuclear generation takes a lot of time to turn off and on.

 

That's why it's better to use solar and wind to charge "hydrogen batteries". It's not an efficient process but if the energy is otherwise going to waste, who cares? Captured hydrogen can be converted back into electric power on demand easily and efficiently.

 

Andy, it was a rhetorical question. I have some knowledge of this through the investments that my ex-wife makes on behalf of her local authority.

The French don't seem to understand that they need to invest in storage or conversion as well as the turbines. And we are still well short of what we should have by way of storage/conversion to get the besy out of renewables.

[AndyID]

Small scale of course but....

 

https://renews.biz/67358/watch-nova-tidal-energy-powers-shetland-vehicles/

[Ron Ron Ron]

I think it criminal that Tidal power hasn’t been given the priority you would think it deserves.

It’s one of the few constant and reliable sources of renewable energy available and unless the Moon decides it fancies a change of scene and bogs off to circle another planet, it can be relied on to operate 24/7/ 365.

With energy storage technology, tidal electricity production can be smoothed out over 24 hours.

 

 

[AndyID]

6 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Andy, it was a rhetorical question. I have some knowledge of this through the investments that my ex-wife makes on behalf of her local authority.

The French don't seem to understand that they need to invest in storage or conversion as well as the turbines. And we are still well short of what we should have by way of storage/conversion to get the besy out of renewables.

 

What's most important is the "round trip" cost. That's the real cost of capturing the energy at the source plus the conversion to useful work/heat at the energy "sink" plus the distribution cost, and it usually turns out to be a lot more complicated than anyone imagines

[Hibelroad]

14 hours ago, Nick C said:

The best thing to do with solar panels is to stick them on the roofs of buildings. 

I remember “the Burkiss Way” once saying that an outspoken person of the day could generate electricity by sticking solar cells down the back of his trousers. 

[APOLLO]

10 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

I think it criminal that Tidal power hasn’t been given the priority you would think it deserves.

It’s one of the few constant and reliable sources of renewable energy available and unless the Moon decides it fancies a change of scene and bogs off to circle another planet, it can be relied on to operate 24/7/ 365.

With energy storage technology, tidal electricity production can be smoothed out over 24 hours.

 

 

 

Fully agree - and the UK has one of the highest tidal ranges in the world.

 

The Severn Estuary, which empties into the Bristol Channel, has one of the largest tidal ranges in the world – about 13 m (43 ft). It is exceeded only by the Bay of Fundy, and possibly Ungava Bay, both in Canada. Morecambe bay is 10.5m.

 

We need to utilise this natural, free resource ASAP.

 

Brit15

[APOLLO]

15 minutes ago, Hibelroad said:

I remember “the Burkiss Way” once saying that an outspoken person of the day could generate electricity by sticking solar cells down the back of his trousers. 

 

 Surely wind power !!!

 

Brit15

[Joseph_Pestell]

12 hours ago, AndyID said:

Small scale of course but....

 

https://renews.biz/67358/watch-nova-tidal-energy-powers-shetland-vehicles/

 

I'm all in favour of small projects. No loss in the distribution network and no need for ugly HT pylons in the countryside.

[Hibelroad]

21 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

 

Fully agree - and the UK has one of the highest tidal ranges in the world.

 

The Severn Estuary, which empties into the Bristol Channel, has one of the largest tidal ranges in the world – about 13 m (43 ft). 

 

Brit15

I remember hearing about a Severn barrier scheme over 40 years ago. Somehow these large infrastructure schemes never seem to advance beyond the study stage. A few million wasted then it all goes quiet until the next generation bring it up again. 

[Reorte]

17 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

I'm all in favour of small projects. No loss in the distribution network and no need for ugly HT pylons in the countryside.

I'm in favour of small projects to a degree but being small, even if numerous, they probably won't add up to much. Still, use them where they should be. It would be very nice if the former mill site behind me had the lake restored and used to drive a mini hydro scheme. But it'll probably just end up with as many houses crammed in to it as possible.

[MarkC]

The new Passport Office in Durham is powered by an Archimedes screw driven genset, using the flow of the River Wear.

 

The new County Hall being built next door should have been driven by hot air, of course... 

[Michael Hodgson]

15 minutes ago, Hibelroad said:

I remember hearing about a Severn barrier scheme over 40 years ago. Somehow these large infrastructure schemes never seem to advance beyond the study stage. A few million wasted then it all goes quiet until the next generation bring it up again. 

Yes, there was a proposal way back (under George Brown?) for a massive barrage from somewhere like Weston to Newport, with a motorway along the top connecting South Wales to the West Country, an airport and new industry of the barrage inland on reclaimed ground, and of course colossal turbines which would take advantage of the tide in both directions.  I don't think the technology of the day was up to the construction of a project on this scale, and of course the money wasn't there.  And of course if constructed there would obviously be impacts on various species that occupy the present habitat.

 

With all the talk of green electricity, notably electric cars and wind power, one of the key requirements is the ability to store energy.  I learnt a bit about the characteristics of different means of generation when I was working on electricity privatisation.  One of the most interesting power stations was Dinorwic.  One key advantage of this place is its ability to supply electricity at the drop of a hat with a capacity of around 9 GWh.  This installation is useful for dealing with sudden spikes in demand such as when everybody switches the kettle on after a goal has been scored in the Cup Final, the record surge at the time has been when JR got shot in the soap Dallas.  Nuclear power can also react extremely quickly.  Gas-powered stations take longer after being turned on because they have to reach temperature and pressure, and coal fired stations take even longer.  It's inefficient to turn these stations on and off - they are more efficient when left to run.  But perhaps the most important feature of Pumped Storage was the ability not only to generate but to absorb the cheaper "surplus" energy  off peak when there was less demand  by pumping the water back up the hill again ready for next time it is needed. 

 

All this makes massive barrages across the Severn and Morecambe bay even more attractive now if we seriously intend to move away from fossil fuels towards intermittent sources like solar and wind power.  It will of course take a vast amount of diesel powered equipment just to shift the amount of material needed to construct such schemes.

 

I agree totally that farmland is a scarce resource which we should be using to grow food (including livestock) rather than burying our fields under acres of solar panels.    If Vegans want to eat rabbit food, that's fine by me but I am an omnivore and I am not going to have my diet dictated by their prejudices.

 

I would be sad to lose the spectacle of the Severn Bore, but it would be a small price to pay if our ever-increasing population is to have acceptable living standards in decades to come.

 

 

[Reorte]

4 minutes ago, MarkC said:

The new Passport Office in Durham is powered by an Archimedes screw driven genset, using the flow of the River Wear.

There's an Archimedes screw generator not far from where I live. I've been past it a handful of times and only seen it operating once.

[Reorte]

1 minute ago, Michael Hodgson said:

I would be sad to lose the spectacle of the Severn Bore, but it would be a small price to pay if our ever-increasing population is to have acceptable living standards in decades to come.

On the other hand whilst standards of living might remain I can't see quality of life doing anything but decrease, especially if we have an ever-increasing population.

[Michael Hodgson]

2 minutes ago, Reorte said:

On the other hand whilst standards of living might remain I can't see quality of life doing anything but decrease, especially if we have an ever-increasing population.

The problems is that we are the "top species".  Other species have their population limited by predation - if there is a glut of insects this year, the birds will have a field day and their population will be larger next year - then the cats will do well the following year etc.

 

Humans on the other hand  have traditionally limited population by declaring war on the tribe next door, because we don't like their religion or their politics or perhaps just because the grass is greener on the other side of the hill.  We managed to kill quite a lot through a couple of world wars in the last century but the last few decades have seen only localised and relatively limited hostilities.  We must be due for another big one soon - but perhaps Covid will achieve a similar result for us.

[Winter123]

OK, I'll bite. I wasn't going to comment on this post due to being too apoplectic.

 

I lost my dog last  year and he meant more to me than any human ever will. To see him described here as "an unnecessary luxury" boils my **** and unfortunately I will not be able to use the vocabulary I'd wish to out of respect for this forum.

 

I hope to find his brother soon and will now have to prepare to defend him, not only against the sick dog thief scum, but also against this ridiculous narrative.

 

Crazed woke behaviour and virtue signalling will destroy this planet far sooner than manmade pollution, global warming and climate change ever will.

[petethemole]

1 hour ago, APOLLO said:

 

 Surely wind power !!!

 

Brit15

More likely to refer to where said character thought the sun shone from.

[The Stationmaster]

16 hours ago, Nick C said:

The best thing to do with solar panels is to stick them on the roofs of buildings. An acquaintance of mine worked out that if you covered the various warehouses etc in our town with panels, it'd provide more than enough juice for the whole town - he even worked out all the funding needed etc, but of course the council didn't want to know, not enough profit in it for them...

Quite agree  - but (and there will always be a 'but') solar panels need light, not necessarily sunlight, to generate electricity and they need an inverter to convert that electricity to ac which is currently the UK standard for mains electricity.  It appears inverters are 90%, or more, efficient when working at their optimum load but that loss increases if they are not working at optimum load and nature, being fickle, will not supply the right amount of light for an optimum load for a good percentage of the time.   Similarly the panels don't work in the dark which is when there is considerable domestic demand for electricity (such as overnight recharging of an electric vehicle off a single phase household supply through a 13 amp socket (not a good idea) or you buya home charger (which appears to work off a normal single phase supply?) and will only cost c£400 - 500) - but you are still charging at night.

 

So daytime generated eectricity needs a surplus above use in order to top up some sort of storage system - whatever that might be.

 

As for the nonsense about people not driving 500 miles in a day or in one go on the National Grid he's using the wrong example.  Many people drive more than 200 miles for their holiday trips and many do it in one go. (I find it very tiring to break a journey of c.200-250 miles as it breaks concentration).  Most everyday (i.e. non -Tesla) E cars only have a range of just over 200 miles and then need to be recharge - so I might not even get to Cornwall in a day without finding a rapid charge point - just imagine a service area on the M5 or down on the A30 on a Bank Holiday.  Yes technology will no doubt advance and Tesla claim a 400 mile range for their latest model but that is well beyond the pockets of most people.

 

And still we come back to distribution - can the supply network cope with the loads.  I'm sure the main grid can but what about local supplies (here we suffered considerable problems until parts of the mains were strengthened a few years back - simple reason the cable network simply hadn't been improved to match increased demand).  And having solar panels on the roof is no use if the mains go down because the systems are designed to stop you drawing power from your own  supply in order to protect against feedback into the mains.  But we'll be alright at night as we have some oil lamps and a good supply of lamp oil.  And we'll keep warm until log burning stoves are  also banned (not that they are reallya problem - it's just the users who don't understand the principles of combustion and also burn unseasoned wood).

 

By the way there is only one absolutely consistent supply of power to the UK grid - nuclear

[The Stationmaster]

53 minutes ago, Reorte said:

There's an Archimedes screw generator not far from where I live. I've been past it a handful of times and only seen it operating once.

There's been a battle going on for nearly 10 years over a ptroposal to install three archimedes screw turbines at Goring on Thames.  It's great idea but the local nimbys are up in arms against it and trying their level best to d stop it.  Goodness only knows how they'll be reacting to a newly announced scheme to int stall a small gas powered power station just outside the village!!

[Hibelroad]

3 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Quite agree  - but (and there will always be a 'but') solar panels need light, not necessarily sunlight, to generate electricity and they need an inverter to convert that electricity to ac which is currently the UK standard for mains electricity.  It appears inverters are 90%, or more, efficient when working at their optimum load but that loss increases if they are not working at optimum load and nature, being fickle, will not supply the right amount of light for an optimum load for a good percentage of the time.   Similarly the panels don't work in the dark which is when there is considerable domestic demand for electricity (such as overnight recharging of an electric vehicle off a single phase household supply through a 13 amp socket (not a good idea) or you buya home charger (which appears to work off a normal single phase supply?) and will only cost c£400 - 500) - but you are still charging at night.

 

So daytime generated eectricity needs a surplus above use in order to top up some sort of storage system - whatever that might be.

 

As for the nonsense about people not driving 500 miles in a day or in one go on the National Grid he's using the wrong example.  Many people drive more than 200 miles for their holiday trips and many do it in one go. (I find it very tiring to break a journey of c.200-250 miles as it breaks concentration).  Most everyday (i.e. non -Tesla) E cars only have a range of just over 200 miles and then need to be recharge - so I might not even get to Cornwall in a day without finding a rapid charge point - just imagine a service area on the M5 or down on the A30 on a Bank Holiday.  Yes technology will no doubt advance and Tesla claim a 400 mile range for their latest model but that is well beyond the pockets of most people.

 

And still we come back to distribution - can the supply network cope with the loads.  I'm sure the main grid can but what about local supplies (here we suffered considerable problems until parts of the mains were strengthened a few years back - simple reason the cable network simply hadn't been improved to match increased demand).  And having solar panels on the roof is no use if the mains go down because the systems are designed to stop you drawing power from your own  supply in order to protect against feedback into the mains.  But we'll be alright at night as we have some oil lamps and a good supply of lamp oil.  And we'll keep warm until log burning stoves are  also banned (not that they are reallya problem - it's just the users who don't understand the principles of combustion and also burn unseasoned wood).

 

By the way there is only one absolutely consistent supply of power to the UK grid - nuclear

I agree all the above, I thought the National Grid quote was just a sound bite for the press. I will declare my interest here as I have worked in a Nuclear station, in grid control and worked on the commissioning of Dinorwig pumped storage station. We all know that car use is not as described in the NationGrid  article and the most likely scenario is everyone plugging in their EV overnight. It was telling that smart meters are mentioned, I believe that they are intended to control demand by adjusting the price at different times in the day. Electricity storage in batteries on a grid scale is a non started, the study carried out for the proposed Glynn Rhonwy station (on the site of my old surface base near Dinorwig) showed that a battery would have a 14 year life. For the same money a pumped storage station would have a 60 year plant life and 120 year civil works life. However there is not sufficient pumped storage capacity at the moment and construction takes years. As noted Nuclear operates 24/7 and can be expected to have up to 40 years plant life, unlike wind turbines. It does appear that electricity is the power of the future and I am sure that there are people making realistic projections of what is need and when, however government and the finance people seem to be dragging their feet, as can be expected. 

 

Non of this has anything to do with pets, pets are a great comfort to many people and to claim that they are in any sense destroying the planet is utter nonsense.

[Michael Hodgson]

35 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Similarly the panels don't work in the dark which is when there is considerable domestic demand for electricity (such as overnight recharging of an electric vehicle off a single phase household supply through a 13 amp socket (not a good idea) or you buya home charger (which appears to work off a normal single phase supply?) and will only cost c£400 - 500) - but you are still charging at night.

 

This much vaunted solution to our need for transport to work etc completely misses the point for a large part of the population.   Yes, you can charge you car at home it you've got a garage or at least your own driveway, as most of the chattering classes do. 

 

However many people in this country still live in Victorian terraced houses, former council houses split into separate upstairs and downstairs dwellings, or like many other advanced countries in blocks of flats etc.  But they still feel a need to have two cars which they have to park on the street, or maybe a communal car park or even illegally on a grass verge.  Above all they can't predict where exactly they will be able to park when they get home from work.  Even owners of houses with a garage often have the problem that it's one of a block on a separate piece of land without an electricity supply.  So installing a charger just isn't an option. 

 

One way of solving that particular problem would be to equip such residential streets extensively with public charging points on posts like parking meters.  The long range problem would need to be addressed by equipping motorway service station car parks with devices in every parking bay.  It would need a lot of digging up streets (like when the cable services were started) as well as whatever the implications are for the electricity supply industry.   

 

STrategic issues like this need to be addressed as part of planning of new housing and industry and the overall approach determined at a national if not trans-national level, and realistically the infrastructure will take many decades to install - on a scale similar to the building of the railways.  And by the time we've got there, some other technology will have come in to take its place.

[Michael Hodgson]

44 minutes ago, Hibelroad said:

It was telling that smart meters are mentioned, I believe that they are intended to control demand by adjusting the price at different times in the day.

Absolutely.  That is coming.  However, the labour saving in meter readers is a valid argument in itself. 

 

Even if you don't see it as a conspiracy, peak time pricing is technically available more or less for free as a by-product of these meters, so why wouldn't they use it?  If you carry the logic further, it makes sense to provide for selective load-shedding.  That doesn't need to be absolute - it is possible to design circuitry such that customers can keep some of their power supply whilst being cut off for less time-critical devices (such as charging an e-vehicle or running a washing machine).

 

What I resent about smart meters is not the technology but the propaganda that these things will save me money by reducing my consumption - no they won't, they can only measure what I am using.

[admiles]

On 24/04/2021 at 12:11, Joseph_Pestell said:

Cats need no training to s**t in other people's gardens. It's in their DNA.

 

Mine don't. They s**t rather neatly into the the plastic tray provided.

 

On the other hand I do have to remove (on a daily basis) large amounts of dog s**t from the path to my front door (on my land) where other people let their dogs s**t.  My three year old has a an uncanny ability to unite his shoes with said s**t.

 

Edit: and just add I don't blame the dogs, just their selfish owners.

Edited April 26, 2021 by admiles