Slotting multiple Distant signals with Home Signals

[WillCav]

Hi All,

 

I'm researching Cheltenham Spa Malvern Road (GWR/WR) as a layout based in 1948.  The track layout from the next junction westwards was four-tracked in 1942-3 resulting in two of the Malvern Road West SB Down signals getting three distant signals each for Lansdown Jn - Kingham, Gloucester DR, Gloucester DM routes left to right.

 

Here's the back of Malvern Road West Down Home (MR west 2) in 1960s (Kingham route distant arm removed by this stage)

It looks like these (outer) distants are motor worked. I haven't found a clear picture of the section signal but  SRS shows the (inner) distants at MR west 3 are wired. It doesn't help that the section signal was moved in the 1960s - probably to allow space for a DMU to reverse when the diesel fuelling road was added (but that is my conjecture).

 

The original image from Gareth David's excellent Gloucestershire steam in the 1960s – RailwayWorld.net https://railwayworld.net/2020/06/13/gloucestershire-steam-in-the-1960s/ - I believe I am using a small crop of the photo under fair usage for research purposes - I will remove if requested to do so 

 

Is this to make the slotting less complicated as the outer distants here need MR west 2 (home) & 3 (section) signals and the relevant inner distant off before they can be allowed to show off?

 

How would it actually move?  Assuming one of the distant levers is reversed at Lansdown Jn, I think the order would be:

- MR West home signal (2) cleared

- MR West section signal (3) clears simultaneously with one of the inner distants (as physically slotted)

- When section signal (3) is arm proved off, motored outer distant can start to moves off?

Does that sound about right?

 

If it is, it will need some clever electrickery to mimic that!  How long did a motor worked signal take to move compared to a signaller working a lever?

 

Thanks for assisting - why did I choose to model a location that was closed before I was born!

 

Will

 

[bécasse]

The station footbridge where I did my trainspotting some 65+ years ago had five motor-worked signals mounted off it, all of which could be heard to operate. The emitted sound was quite brief in duration - say a couple of seconds or so.

[Michael Hodgson]

I

42 minutes ago, WillCav said:

 

 

Is this to make the slotting less complicated as the outer distants here need MR west 2 (home) & 3 (section) signals and the relevant inner distant off before they can be allowed to show off?

 

How would it actually move?  Assuming one of the distant levers is reversed at Lansdown Jn, I think the order would be:

- MR West home signal (2) cleared

- MR West section signal (3) clears simultaneously with one of the inner distants (as physically slotted)

- When section signal (3) is arm proved off, motored outer distant can start to moves off?

Does that sound about right?

 

I would expect the outer distant to require the inner distant detected off for the motor to operate (and for it to fall back if the inner distant ceases to show off).  If a driver sees the outer distant off and the inner one on, it looks to him like it's been put back in an emergency.

[LNERGE]

A Westinghouse signal machine here..

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGxeA34VZqg

[WillCav]

Thanks because, Michael and LNERGE.

 

The video on YouTube seems to suggest about 5 seconds to clear and about a second to go to caution - really useful.

 

Will

[The Stationmaster]

18 hours ago, LNERGE said:

A Westinghouse signal machine here..

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGxeA34VZqg

Known officially in Reading Works as 'Signal Backing Machines'

 

17 hours ago, WillCav said:

Thanks because, Michael and LNERGE.

 

The video on YouTube seems to suggest about 5 seconds to clear and about a second to go to caution - really useful.

 

Will

The time they took to work varied enormously depending on adjustment and maintemce but generally in my experience they tended to be much slower putting an arm back to caution or danger than they were at clearing it.  Hence the amusing sight of a lower arm distant still gradually creeping back to caution while the wire worked stop arm above it was already back standing at danger 

[bécasse]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

Hence the amusing sight of a lower arm distant still gradually creeping back to caution while the wire worked stop arm above it was already back standing at danger 

And I have seen at least a couple of photographs where a nimble-fingered photographer has taken advantage of that fact to apparently picture the signal with the home on but the distant off.

[WillCav]

On 30/04/2021 at 11:36, The Stationmaster said:

...

 Hence the amusing sight of a lower arm distant still gradually creeping back to caution while the wire worked stop arm above it was already back standing at danger 

Thanks Stationmaster

 

I'm thinking that this could be replicated if I use servos for the mechanisms with a much slower movement for the outer distants.

 

That would give the right look, and it would contrast with the following signal where the timings would be simultaneous as all the inner distant servos as wire operated. 

 

Thanks for everyone's ideas on this

 

Will

[The Stationmaster]

4 hours ago, WillCav said:

Thanks Stationmaster

 

I'm thinking that this could be replicated if I use servos for the mechanisms with a much slower movement for the outer distants.

 

That would give the right look, and it would contrast with the following signal where the timings would be simultaneous as all the inner distant servos as wire operated. 

 

Thanks for everyone's ideas on this

 

Will

It would be interesting to know - should anyone have access to the relevant prints - how the distants worked in  the inner was wire worked and the outer was power worked (were they separate levers?).  

[WillCav]

59 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

It would be interesting to know - should anyone have access to the relevant prints - how the distants worked in  the inner was wire worked and the outer was power worked (were they separate levers?).  

Unfortunately, I only purchased the digital versions of St James and Malvern Road East and West from SRS, so I'm not 100% sure.

 

If one lever, it could directly work the inner distant and the outer could use the inner distant arm repeat in the slotting circuit to prove the inner is off.

 

Thanks

 

Will

[Stephen Freeman]

I think you may be making it a bit more complicated than needs be. According to the SRS diagram there is only one lever (3), which makes me think the distants were actually fixed. Actually there are 2 very similar signals which might be adding to the confusion. The  photo is of the one nearest the platform and also just has one lever (2) but is not motorised, the one nearest to Lansdown Junction is but that is just down to distance from the box.

 

No we were all wrong! The distants were worked from Lansdown Junction Box!

Edited May 2, 2021 by Stephen Freeman
addition

[5BarVT]

On 01/05/2021 at 16:49, The Stationmaster said:

It would be interesting to know - should anyone have access to the relevant prints - how the distants worked in  the inner was wire worked and the outer was power worked (were they separate levers?).  

I have the SRS CD!  All Lansdown Jn distants (except for the branch) had inner wire worked and outer motor worked off the same lever.

Paul.

[micknich2003]

At Beverley North on the Hull to Scarbrough Branch the Inner Distant  was mechanical but the Outer Distant motor worked, both off the same lever. To further complicate matters, the Outer Distant was below Beverley Station's Starter that was also mechanically slotted as Cherry Tree's Home.

[ReTyerd Signalman]

On 05/05/2021 at 20:23, micknich2003 said:

At Beverley North on the Hull to Scarbrough Branch the Inner Distant  was mechanical but the Outer Distant motor worked, both off the same lever. To further complicate matters, the Outer Distant was below Beverley Station's Starter that was also mechanically slotted as Cherry Tree's Home.

Had a few stuck like that in my career.  The frightening thing is when you learn that signal or slot repeaters don’t always work properly either!

[5BarVT]

3 hours ago, ReTyerd Signalman said:

Had a few stuck like that in my career.  The frightening thing is when you learn that signal or slot repeaters don’t always work properly either!

Shhhhhh . . .!

That’s why proper training is required (and I suspect you were) so that you can interpret the unusual and unexpected and report as required rather than blindly follow rote.  Rather too many ‘signal lever “stuck” so talk by then “discover” points run through’ for my liking towards the end of my career.  (But a bit off topic, sorry.)

Paul.

[WillCav]

2 hours ago, 5BarVT said:

...

(But a bit off topic, sorry.)

Paul.

Paul,

No worries with going off topic - it all adds and gives a more rounded picture of the real railway.

Will

[beast66606]

On 30/04/2021 at 11:36, The Stationmaster said:

Known officially in Reading Works as 'Signal Backing Machines'

 

The time they took to work varied enormously depending on adjustment and maintemce but generally in my experience they tended to be much slower putting an arm back to caution or danger than they were at clearing it.  Hence the amusing sight of a lower arm distant still gradually creeping back to caution while the wire worked stop arm above it was already back standing at danger 

 

Here's one I prepared earlier - Wrexham Croes Newyd North Fork. Incidentally for those who want really complicated distant slotting then Wrexham takes some beating, Wrexham North, Wrexham South, Croes Newydd North Fork and Croes Newydd South Fork were consecutive sections, close (ish) together and the motorisation of the distant arms must have saved a lot of inter box workings - the up main distant was slotted by the 4 boxes with all the arm proving etc required.