Flunter Posted May 13, 2021 Share Posted May 13, 2021 Hi all. I have a question regarding my Z21 Black. As you can see from the video, the voltage fluctuates considerably between 12 and 14v, as the title, is this normal? There is nothing on the layout. I've adjusted the Z21's output down to 14v because of an issue I was having with some DCC Concepts IP Digital point motors getting damaged, thankfully, the voltage reduction has solved that issue. Any help would be appreciated. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIMorrison Posted May 13, 2021 Share Posted May 13, 2021 This is caused by the DCC Concepts unit not supporting or working when Railcom is enabled in the Z21. The voltage shown within the Z21 App or the Z21 Maint Program is accurate. Your only solution is to disable Railcom in the Z21 as DCC Concepts will not address this known problem. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flunter Posted May 13, 2021 Author Share Posted May 13, 2021 3 hours ago, WIMorrison said: Your only solution is to disable Railcom in the Z21 as DCC Concepts will not address this known problem. I'll give that a try, thank you for your help. Such a shame DCC Concepts aren't willing to address the issue, I use iTrain and tend to rely on Railcom quite a lot. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIMorrison Posted May 13, 2021 Share Posted May 13, 2021 If you iTrain then you can see the voltages, track current, etc within iTrain, and you don't need this 'gadget' 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flunter Posted May 13, 2021 Author Share Posted May 13, 2021 Haha, I hadn't realised that. Something else to check out Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hodgson Posted May 13, 2021 Share Posted May 13, 2021 If you are using itrain, do checkout this series of over 40 youtube clips which Iain didn't mention although he is credited with assisting in their production. Too much to watch all in one go! If the above little issue has mentioned I've missed it but there's a hell of lot of useful info in there that is hard to find in the manual and there are clearly more episodes to come. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flunter Posted May 13, 2021 Author Share Posted May 13, 2021 I've watched the tutorials from the start, they truly are invaluable Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted May 13, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 13, 2021 BTW if you have the Z21 Maintenance Tool on your computer that will show you how much current is being drawn from the Z21 as well as the voltage out. It's under the "Status" tab. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIMorrison Posted May 13, 2021 Share Posted May 13, 2021 22 minutes ago, Flunter said: I've watched the tutorials from the start, they truly are invaluable I’m glad you liked them 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Johnson Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 Actually.... While we still consider Railcom a terrible approach technically because of the way it constantly interferes with bus communication, effectively interrupting the bus repeatedly and relying in a narrow time window that not all manufacturers get exactly right beause of failure to consider component combinations and resulting drift... we understand that its there. We have to, because it can be quite harmful to communication, even for standards-compliant products. (I'd add that in conversation with some of the EU controller makers - they too think it a primitive approach compared to todays technologies and the potential for better approaches). We were reluctant to make a change to Alpha Meter because what you saw with Railcom was indeed whats happening on your DCC bus - Constant interruptions. However, we discussed it and decided that as Railcom was turned on by default in some EU controllers and a few customers who don't even know what it is (and had no reason or desire to ever use it) were being affected... We should look at it. As a result we have already made a running change to mask Railcom activity, and this version has been on sale for a while now. RIchard Johnson 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flunter Posted May 14, 2021 Author Share Posted May 14, 2021 4 hours ago, Richard Johnson said: ...this version has been on sale for a while now. A while? How do I know if I have a Railcom compatible product, it was purchased new around 3 months ago? Thank you for the comprehensive reply BTW. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold D9020 Nimbus Posted May 14, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 14, 2021 So there is some truth in Sir Nigel Gresley's (alleged) remark "standardisation is just another word for stagnation"! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flunter Posted May 14, 2021 Author Share Posted May 14, 2021 21 hours ago, WIMorrison said: If you iTrain then you can see the voltages, track current, etc within iTrain, and you don't need this 'gadget' Hmmm, I can't seem to find that window within iTrain Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIMorrison Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 Double click on Z21 at the bottom right. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnDMJ Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 It seems that Railcom has been included in the NMRA definitions so does that mean that any product which does not support it is non-compliant?s-9.3.2_2012_12_10.pdf Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted May 14, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 14, 2021 It does state that having Railcom enabled should not affect decoders that aren't Railcom, so it reads as an option. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelcliffe Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 8 minutes ago, JohnDMJ said: It seems that Railcom has been included in the NMRA definitions so does that mean that any product which does not support it is non-compliant?s-9.3.2_2012_12_10.pdf Only if you can wade through all the standards documents to show that working in the presence of a RailCom signal is a requirement. NMRA standards/compliance are now very moot - the NMRA has looked pretty much moribund on DCC matters for at least ten years. There are European manufacturer's bodies discussing standards for DCC: doing their own thing, not at the NMRA. In this case, a Roco Z21 system and a DCC Concepts device (noting that the maker says they've modified the device). Neither has a NMRA compliance warrant(*). So which manufacturer is producing the "non compliant" product ? Answers on a post-card.... (* nor has much else. As an exercise, see if any DCC devices you own has a compliance warrant. My total: a couple of decoders. ) - Nigel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted May 14, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 14, 2021 13 minutes ago, Nigelcliffe said: (* nor has much else. As an exercise, see if any DCC devices you own has a compliance warrant. My total: a couple of decoders. ) - Nigel Hornby's decoders? The IMHO not very good R8249 proudly states that it is NMRA compliant, complete with a NMRA logo. Not much of a recommendation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelcliffe Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 5 minutes ago, melmerby said: Hornby's decoders? The IMHO not very good R8249 proudly states that it is NMRA compliant, complete with a NMRA logo. Not much of a recommendation. No: a Lenz Gold from over a dozen years ago (pretty certain its the same model as the 2006 test), and, probably, a recent ESU (not 100% certain from the published list in matching decoder versions). I was expecting nothing ! But your comment on the nature of "compliant" not equating to quality is a fair one. - Nigel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flunter Posted May 14, 2021 Author Share Posted May 14, 2021 1 hour ago, WIMorrison said: Double click on Z21 at the bottom right. Found it, thank you I've removed the Alpha Meter as it clearly isn't needed when using iTrain. My issue was, when using automatic routes, iTrain would randomly neglect to operate points even though the route had been reserved, this would obviously cause a short when the train reached the point. Since removing the Alpha Meter I've just completed a 2 hour automated running session of 4 trains without issue, and the voltage is steady at 14.5 - 14.7 Now to watch video no. 42 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnDMJ Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 As far as I am aware, Hornby possess an NMRA Warrant of Compliance. Whilst NMRA has run with the governing standards for DCC, the MOROP setup in Europe (heard of the NEM standards?) has also been prevalent. Most NEM Standards agree with those of NMRA but there are some discrepancies on voltage levels on MTC21 connectors. (MTC = Märklin Trix Connector!) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIMorrison Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 20 minutes ago, Nigelcliffe said: ... But your comment on the nature of "compliant" not equating to quality is a fair one. - Nigel This is a bit like ISO9001:xxxx which is a Quality Standard. It doesn't actually mean that your product is any good, what it does confirm is that you can produce exactly the same level of rubbish each and every time thus proving your Quality Management System is working not the product that you produce Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold BoD Posted May 14, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 14, 2021 11 minutes ago, Flunter said: Since removing the Alpha Meter I've just completed a 2 hour automated running session of 4 trains without issue, and the voltage is steady at 14.5 - 14.7 If I understand it correctly the fluctuation on the Alpha Meter was caused by it not allowing for railcom - however it seems strange that just having it in the circuit causes random problems with the route/point setting. Is this another issue caused by it and its handling of Railcom? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnDMJ Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 7 minutes ago, BoD said: If I understand it correctly the fluctuation on the Alpha Meter was caused by it not allowing for railcom - however it seems strange that just having it in the circuit causes random problems with the route/point setting. Is this another issue caused by it and its handling of Railcom? 1 hour ago, JohnDMJ said: It seems that Railcom has been included in the NMRA definitions so does that mean that any product which does not support it is non-compliant?s-9.3.2_2012_12_10.pdf Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIMorrison Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 (edited) In industry to be ‘compliant’ with a standard you need to be assessed by an external body i.e. you cannot declare yourself ‘compliant’ however you can describe your product as ‘conformant’ with a standard which simply means you acknowledge the standard and consider that you meet said standard - however as this conformance hasn’t been tested by anyone you cannot say you are compliant. Most, but not all decoders conform to the NMRA standard but very few are compliant. Edited May 14, 2021 by WIMorrison Apple auto-spelling :( 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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