Mystery Coach

[Edwardian]

Can anyone identify this vehicle?

 

Judging from the style, I would say it is probably of 1870s vintage. It appears to me likely to have been built as a composite, probably given its date, a First/Second composite (note the different treatment of the inner two compartments and the fact that only their doors have vents. The faded class designations to the doors appear to me to read ‘Third’, suggesting it has been downgraded. Given the date of the photograph (1901), that seems more than likely. 

 

I would be unsurprised if it turned out to be a NER or constituent coach.

 

It's the Directors' inspection train on opening of the splendidly named Goole & Marshland Lt Ry. It is probably leased from the Yorkshire Wagon Co, to the Yorkshire District Light Railway Syndicate, both entities associated Sebastian Meyer the Light Railway promoter and contractor on the G&MLR.

 

 

EDIT: Looking through some NER drawings at York, I see a precedent in NE design for three distinctive features of this coach.

 

First, radiussed inner compartment doors and blind panels, but square for outer compartments.

 

Second, both square and radiussed ends to the eaves panels.

 

Third, on one of the drawings below, the outer, presumably second class, compartment, lacks door vents.

 

Also, the way the square waist beading is not separate, but joins the vertical beading is seen in both the photograph and the NER drawings.

 

So, to that extent I may have answered my own question.  However, nothing I have seen, while sharing  one or more of the characteristics noted above, is a match.  Blind vertical panels between compartments mist often appear to be subdivided by beading in the examples I can find, a rather NE thing that persisted, and the radius of the vertical panels is not continuous, among many other details.  

 

 

 

So, I would hazard a guess it is an ex-NER vehicle, and a 1st-2nd 4-wheel comp. As for confirmation, diagram number, date, principal dimensions etc .....?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 25, 2021 by Edwardian
Further information

[alastairq]

1 hour ago, Edwardian said:

Goole & Marshland Lt Ry.

 OOOH! Didn't they have a shunting camel called Sentinel?

[t-b-g]

The rounded tops to the windows are very reminiscent of some early MS&LR designs but I have very little information on them. There was a series of articles in the HMRS journal many years ago on Cheshire Lines carriages which had some drawings and photos of their carriages built to MSLR designs but I don't have a copy to hand.

[Edwardian]

44 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

The rounded tops to the windows are very reminiscent of some early MS&LR designs but I have very little information on them. There was a series of articles in the HMRS journal many years ago on Cheshire Lines carriages which had some drawings and photos of their carriages built to MSLR designs but I don't have a copy to hand.

 

Yes, that was the first company that came to mind, but then I noticed the distinctive features I listed, which I have, thus far, only noted on NE coaches.

 

Below, the two preserved MS&LR coaches I am aware of, at Tanfield (top) and Mountsorrel. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 25, 2021 by Edwardian
Clarity

[billbedford]

There was a discussion about this coach many years ago in, IIRC the GCRS journal. The outcome was that it was probably an early NER coach. There are elements such as the slab beading, that are typical NER. Most of the elements of this coach appear on other NER coaches of the time, but not necessarily on the same coach. The windows of the end compartments are typical of other thirds, while the round topped first and second class windows can be found on, for instance an officer's saloon number 1661 which was built in 1871. 

[t-b-g]

It is certainly an unusual design. The combination of round and flat topped windows plus square and round panelling along the roof line isn't something I have seen before and probably rules out the MS&LR. I have dug out my CLC drawings from the HMRS (all the way back to 1968) and I don't now think it is from there. There are too many differences.

 

On balance, NER seems most likely.

 

Researching items from that sort of vintage is great fun but very frustrating. There is a preserved MS&LR 4 wheeler luggage tri-composite at the Vintage Carriage Trust at the KWVR which is in lovely condition but much has altered since it was first built and the restoration to "original condition" has reversed some changes, not reversed some and even introduced some new ones! Trying to model it as it was in 1907 has to involve some guesswork as to which features were there at that date, when it was already 31 years old.

 

 

[Edwardian]

2 hours ago, billbedford said:

There are elements such as the slab beading, that are typical NER. Most of the elements of this coach appear on other NER coaches of the time, but not necessarily on the same coach. 

 

[emphasis added]

 

Yes, that is exactly the conclusion I came to, having reviewed several 1870s NER drawings that are at York.   I have not seen such features elsewhere save on the NER drawings, even though there is no match.

 

Of course this may be a case of fools failing to differ, but I think the reasoning here is sound. 

 

25 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

On balance, NER seems most likely.

 

I think the picture is clear enough to allow it to be modelled.  I can use the drawings of other NER 4-wheelers of the period for the underframe etc.

 

Further, i suppose I could have a go at inferring the dimensions.  Perhaps elements such as door width, roof radius etc can also be derived from the drawings. Looks tricky though!.  I could do with knowing the length of the body at least.  

 

Thanks both.

[johnb]

I know almost (well nothing) about NER coaches and of that vintage but the leading photo strikes me as a vintage 'kitbash'. Maybe after a mishap that damaged both ends and the 'repair' used the style of the current works builds.

[t-b-g]

I think I have it.

 

One night, in a darkened corner of a carriage shed, there was an illicit encounter between a NER 4 wheel all third and an MSLR all 1st. The offspring was a bit of a mongrel and was exiled to the Goole and Marshland Railway, which was, let's be honest, the back end of nowhere.

 

There, it was away from all the other carriages so that nobody could tell that it wasn't quite one thing or the other and nobody would ever realise, until 130 years later, that it had ever existed.

[Edwardian]

Don't worry, I'm not about to add the Ghoul & Swampland Slight Railway to my list if unfinished/unstarted projects!

 

For various devious reasons, I would, nevertheless, like to model this coach.

 

Studying the NER coach drawings of the 1870s shows an almost obsessive determination to spell out class distinctions on the coach exteriors.

 

Third Class and Second Class coaches had square cornered panels and lights. Only First Class had radiussed corners.

 

This led to odd results when the policy was implemented on a single coach containing both First and Second Class. Consider the drawing below.

 

Determined to preserve the class-specific body styles and to mark the transition between classes, we have an eaves panel with square corners at the Second end and a radiussed First Class end (as in the mystery coach).

 

Even the internal partition is marked on the vertical panels, dividing the space between the quarter lights into a wider radiussed First panel and a narrower square-cornered Second panel (not a feature of the mystery coach).

 

At least, in this example, Second gets a door vent!

 

Further note that the mystery coach has commode handles consistent with the NE examples (not the rarest or most distinctive grab handle pattern), but the mystery coach clearly has 'T' door handles.  The feature that troubles me is the continuous curve of the panel and light tops on the mystery coach.  All the NE examples I can fins have simple rounded corners.  Nevertheless, there are too many NE features for it, IMHO, to be anything else. But I want to know more!

 

[billbedford]

 

The S&D was quite capable of producing weird carriages without outside help, Thankyou. 

Note the door hinges. 

 

 

This is the Officer's saloon 1661 after rebuilding from a 6-wheeler to bogie. The underframe looks to me like steel, so the made a good job of the update. 

 

 

[whart57]

Did the NER at the time build all their carriages themselves or did they outsource some to outside builders like the various companies that ended up as Metro-Cammell. The relatively minor deviations from NER standard design could be explained by unclear instructions being given to an outside builder.

[billbedford]

The NER was an amalgamation of about 60 companies. The carriage works of a number of these continued building stock to their own designs for some time after being taken over. It wasn't till the 1880s that 'standard' designs were built in any numbers. The earlier design appear to have been long lived with many losing into the 20th century. 

[Edwardian]

It's quite capable of being a S&D coach, I think, and I did give the smoking coach a good look.

 

I had not seen a picture of the Officer's Saloon before, for which thanks, and it is the first example I've seen with same round top panels and lights.

 

I can just imagine our coach as something the Darlington Cttee came up with in the '70s.

[Edwardian]

3 hours ago, whart57 said:

Did the NER at the time build all their carriages themselves or did they outsource some to outside builders like the various companies that ended up as Metro-Cammell. The relatively minor deviations from NER standard design could be explained by unclear instructions being given to an outside builder.

 

Not that I know of.

 

There would, I suspect, like locos, have built them in more than one place in more than one way!

[billbedford]

3 hours ago, Edwardian said:

It's quite capable of being a S&D coach, I think, and I did give the smoking coach a good look.

 

I don't think it is. It has the hinges on the right, ie left, side of the doors. 'cors they could have been changed at some time in the coaches life. 

[Compound2632]

I've got North Eastern Record Vol. 2 open in front of me and confess to being in a state of doubt. That has the photographs Bill has posted and also a side-on view of a 4-compartment first of 1871, abounding in gaudy ovals. The tops of the first class windows are a continuous arch, like the G&MLR carriage, unlike the various North Eastern drawings posted, which merely show round corners. But the point that gives me doubt is the eves panelling, which is quite deep, whereas on the S&D carriages it is shallow and not really a separate panel but rather a wide piece of beading. That and the normally-hung doors, as Bill points out.

 

There is a rather crude drawing of the West Hartlepool Harbour & Railway's carriage 0f 1865, which is closer in style to the G&MLR carriage but is a 6-compartment 6-wheel first/second composite. If its end compartments were cut off, it would actually be quite a good match.

[Compound2632]

Interest piqued, poking around I find an uncropped if low-res version of the OP photo, which I see is also on the cover of the Oakwood book on the Axholm Joint Railway. The brake third (I suppose) with birdcage has an equally NER-constituent look about it but is not a matching vehicle - I'd say the eves panels look shallower. The engine is, I suppose, a contractor's locomotive - in fact, this one.

[Edwardian]

8 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Interest piqued, poking around I find an uncropped if low-res version of the OP photo, which I see is also on the cover of the Oakwood book on the Axholm Joint Railway. The brake third (I suppose) with birdcage has an equally NER-constituent look about it but is not a matching vehicle - I'd say the eves panels look shallower. The engine is, I suppose, a contractor's locomotive - in fact, this one.

 

It's a MW Q, yes, built for the line. The brake coach looks like a NER brake third of some description, as you say. I'm interested in both coaches.

 

 

Square cornered lights and vertical panels would be typical of the NER from the mid-'60s to the early '80s. I suspect the roof arc argues for earlier in that date range.  I have some images of drawings of a Third of the period, so could probably infer a brake third from it.

[Edwardian]

On 25/05/2021 at 11:51, Edwardian said:

I would be unsurprised if it turned out to be a NER or constituent coach.

 

 

 

 

 

 

What is interesting about the Mystery Coach (as an assumed First/Second composite, is that the centre blind vertical panel is no wider than the two that sit on the First and Second Class partitions.

 

This suggests to me that we might be looking at equal sized compartments, but, presumably, with First Class more plush (e.g. arm rests for fewer occupants, door vents etc).

 

While I have come across this sort of thing before, the failure to distinguish classes by compartment widths is a matter of practice that is another factor when considering the building company.

 

10 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I've got North Eastern Record Vol. 2 open in front of me and confess to being in a state of doubt. That has the photographs Bill has posted and also a side-on view of a 4-compartment first of 1871, abounding in gaudy ovals. The tops of the first class windows are a continuous arch, like the G&MLR carriage, unlike the various North Eastern drawings posted, which merely show round corners. But the point that gives me doubt is the eves panelling, which is quite deep, whereas on the S&D carriages it is shallow and not really a separate panel but rather a wide piece of beading. That and the normally-hung doors, as Bill points out.

 

There is a rather crude drawing of the West Hartlepool Harbour & Railway's carriage 0f 1865, which is closer in style to the G&MLR carriage but is a 6-compartment 6-wheel first/second composite. If its end compartments were cut off, it would actually be quite a good match.

 

 

The drawing and the date suggests a very shallow roof arc, more like the brake third in our picture. This, though, is another railway company building in a similar style, and one could imagine a 4-wheel version of the 1870s derived from this looking very like, as you say, a cut-down version of this coach, save, of course, that the West Hartlepool did not last long enough as an independent entity*. 

 

Like the NE-built example, it shares some of the features of our coach, but not others. The droplights don't have continuous radius tops, like the NER examples I posted, just the corners are rounded. Bill Bedford's picture of the S&D Officers' Saloon is the only example to have this feature.

 

The distinction between the classes in panel/lights tops (round top and square) is there, as is the beading style I commented on (that Bill referred to as 'slab beading'), which was clearly also both a NER and S&D feature at this period.  

 

The NER practice of having the ends of the eaves panels both rounded and square, according to class, is absent to the left of centre, but is there on the eves panel right of centre!

 

In this case, at least, West Hartlepool seemed to think that Second Class passengers deserved door vents.  The NER did not always share that view!

 

So, it's yet another possible heritage!

 

EDIT: * Thinking about this, if I'm right in regarding the Mystery Coach as most likely 1870s vintage,the options for it being built by a NER constituent are probably quite limited, perhaps only the Blyth & Tyne (amalgamated 1874) and the Darlington Committee (which carried on S&D locomotive and rolling stock traditions to 1875**).

 

** I believe that Hopetown Carriage Works, Darlington, carried on building to c.1884, so one wonders how much of the S&D tradition survived even the passing of Bouch? 

 

 

Edited May 27, 2021 by Edwardian

[Compound2632]

On the basis of the drawings in North Eastern Record, I had discounted the Blythe & Tyne. You've pointed out a feature that I hadn't consciously noted - the higher arc roof, which does speak for a later date than 1870s - so perhaps an early 1880s Darlington-built carriage is a reasonable speculation.

 

A carriage sold out of service would, I think, be one that was due for renewal according to the accountant. On the Midland, certainly around the turn of the century, that seems to have been 21½ years. But on the other hand, the ex-Midland bogie carriages that passed to various minor lines in the 1910s were of early 1880s vintage, so were nearer 30 years old; they may well have been in duplicate stock for several years. In 1905 the Midland had 403 bogie carriages on the duplicate list.

[Edwardian]

3 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

On the basis of the drawings in North Eastern Record, I had discounted the Blythe & Tyne. You've pointed out a feature that I hadn't consciously noted - the higher arc roof, which does speak for a later date than 1870s - so perhaps an early 1880s Darlington-built carriage is a reasonable speculation.

 

A carriage sold out of service would, I think, be one that was due for renewal according to the accountant. On the Midland, certainly around the turn of the century, that seems to have been 21½ years. But on the other hand, the ex-Midland bogie carriages that passed to various minor lines in the 1910s were of early 1880s vintage, so were nearer 30 years old; they may well have been in duplicate stock for several years. In 1905 the Midland had 403 bogie carriages on the duplicate list.

 

Indeed, it could be a coach, to my mind of the early 1870s-early 1880s, as the the NER roof arcs are certainly higher from the early '70s than those from the mid-'60s, so the Mystery Coach could be anywhere in the decade range given.  

 

You will see in North Eastern Record Vol.2, page 17, plate 1.12 a 5-compt. 4-wheel Third of c.1870.  It is very much of the ilk of NER Second and Third Class 'square cornered' compartment design seen in the NER drawings posted and in the outer compartments of the Mystery Coach. To my mind, it could well be a near contemporary of our Mystery Coach. 

 

It is photographed c.1903, assumed to be readied for sale.  This bears out your point about disposals and makes it entirely likely that the Meyer-associated Yorkshire Wagon Co could have acquired 1870s NER carriages around the turn of the century for hire to his various Light Railway concerns.  Around the turn of the century, for instance, the GER sold a lot of late 1860s-1870s 4-wheelers off to minor lines. 

 

Note the roof arc. It's not as flat as, say, the Brake Third in our picture, or, e.g. of the Blyth & Tyne 1871 4-wheel composite (fig. 1.8). Rather, do you not think the roof arc is rather more like that of the Mystery Coach. 

[BernardTPM]

1 hour ago, Edwardian said:

What is interesting about the Mystery Coach (as an assumed First/Second composite, is that the centre blind vertical panel is no wider than the two that sit on the First and Second Class partitions.

This suggests to me that we might be looking at equal sized compartments, but, presumably, with First Class more plush (e.g. arm rests for fewer occupants, door vents etc).

It looks to me that the windows are slightly narrower in the two end compartments, though not by much. It is actually more apparent if you cover over the different shapes to the tops of the windows.

 

[Compound2632]

20 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

You will see in North Eastern Record Vol.2, page 17, plate 1.12 a 5-compt. 4-wheel Third of c.1870.  It is very much of the ilk of NER Second and Third Class 'square cornered' compartment design seen in the NER drawings posted and in the outer compartments of the Mystery Coach. To my mind, it could well be a near contemporary of our Mystery Coach. 

 

It is photographed c.1903, assumed to be readied for sale.  This bears out your point about disposals and makes it entirely likely that the Meyer-associated Yorkshire Wagon Co could have acquired 1870s NER carriages around the turn of the century for hire to his various Light Railway concerns.  Around the turn of the century, for instance, the GER sold a lot of late 1860s-1870s 4-wheelers off to minor lines. 

 

Note the roof arc. It's not as flat as, say, the Brake Third in our picture, or, e.g. of the Blyth & Tyne 1871 4-wheel composite (fig. 1.8). Rather, do you not think the roof arc is rather more like that of the Mystery Coach. 

 

Yes, the panelling, along with details such as hinges and handles, is very like. The third has square-topped end panels whereas the mystery coach has the tops following the arc of the roof. Also it looks to me to have five end panels rather than the third's six. 

 

Given the notorious lack of standardisation in the Locomotive Department before the arrival of the Worsdell brothers, I don't think we should be at all surprised at struggling to find two NER carriages of the 1870s/early 80s with identical features!

[Edwardian]

13 minutes ago, BernardTPM said:

It looks to me that the windows are slightly narrower in the two end compartments, though not by much. It is actually more apparent if you cover over the different shapes to the tops of the windows.

 

 

Well spotted.  That is interesting; the width of the quarterlights, rather than the blind panels, varying to reflect different compartment widths.

 

6 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Yes, the panelling, along with details such as hinges and handles, is very like. The third has square-topped end panels whereas the mystery coach has the tops following the arc of the roof. Also it looks to me to have five end panels rather than the third's six. 

 

Yes, the ends, plus the continuous curve of the lights and panels, differ from NE practice.  These features have been seen, so far, only on the Officer's Saloon, interestingly said to be converted from a S&D* Third of 1871

 

NB, if you want to see a photograph of NER 1870s coaches in a similar style as the drawings I posted earlier, plate 1.37 shows an inspection saloon of 1874. 

 

6 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Given the notorious lack of standardisation in the Locomotive Department before the arrival of the Worsdell brothers, I don't think we should be at all surprised at struggling to find two NER carriages of the 1870s/early 80s with identical features!

 

Yes, given what we know of locomotive variety, with different works doing their own thing (as you know, something Ahrons remarked upon), I would expect noticeable differences between York and Darlington built coaches. In any case, Darlington was largely autonomous in such matters under Bouch (up to 1875) and thereafter would still do things somewhat differently, hence the e.g. 'Darlington Cabs' on certain locomotives. 

 

Ooh, just spotted something else; plate 1.86 on page 57. Look at the ''Darlington'' coach obscured by the station roof column.  I believe we may have a match! In style; a First, I would guess, of the same style as the Mystery Coach First-Second composite.

 

If so, it is the answer we've been working towards; a Darlington-built NER coach. If you look closely, the quarter lights, droplights and blind panels, all seem to be topped by continuous curves, not seen on contemporary NER (for which, I suspect, read 'York') coaches. 

 

* Darlington Committee of NER 1863-1875