Fitting decoders in non DCC ready locos

[topnoddy]

Good evening gents , i'm just getting back into modelling after a long break and my how the electrics side has changed ! 

I'm just getting my head around the DCC loco control (i think) and my question is do i need to use different decoders on non ready locos or will they be the same as the pinned DCC ready versions ? Only wired in instead of plugged in . 

I'm going to be modelling N gauge steam so only need basic functions as far as i can tell 

Edited June 13, 2021 by topnoddy
title

[WIMorrison]

The decoders are identical, it is simply the connection that varies.

 

I dare to suggest that you will find the Zimo MX617 decoders a very good family to use as the standard for your fleet.

 

https://www.coastaldcc.co.uk/products/zimo/mx617f

 

this is the wires only version, you can get it as a pin variety also.

[Nigelcliffe]

What Iain said - Zimo are top notch.  If really stuck for space, then either the little (and more expensive) Zimo MX616, or there's a very small decoder from D&H.    But generally, go with the MX617.    

 

If you don't need lights, then remove the lighting wires from decoders to save space.    If really stuck for space, can replace decoder wires with much thinner wire (but that's only usually for those scratchbuilding pre-grouping locos in 2mm finescale....).   

 

 

And, you don't have to go DCC if you don't want to.  Depends on the size of layout, and your aims.   

DCC brings some advantages, but it also brings costs: money and time/hassle of installing things.  

 

 

- Nigel

[dpgibbons]

Be aware that some old Farish models are not dcc compatible and require some extra work for conversion.

[Suzie]

7 hours ago, WIMorrison said:

The decoders are identical, it is simply the connection that varies.

 

I dare to suggest that you will find the Zimo MX617 decoders a very good family to use as the standard for your fleet.

 

https://www.coastaldcc.co.uk/products/zimo/mx617f

 

this is the wires only version, you can get it as a pin variety also.

 

The 'F' suffix on MX617f means that it has a 6-pin plug on the end of the wires, wires only versions do not have a suffix (a wires only one would be MX617)

[topnoddy]

Thanks for the replies , i must admit i like the idea of running 2 or more trains on the same track independently so will go down the DCC set up route . As for block detection and power districts i think i'll leave that well alone , i've been watching you videos and on the lay out i'm planning that would be OTT . I found it odd that given the what to me seems very hi tech electrics the controllers are still wired in 

 

I only live 20 minutes or so away from coastal dcc so i think i'll contact them about fitting the wired versions for me . The locos are Dapol 14xx and 45xx . 

[Nigelcliffe]

22 minutes ago, topnoddy said:

I only live 20 minutes or so away from coastal dcc so i think i'll contact them about fitting the wired versions for me . The locos are Dapol 14xx and 45xx . 

 

If you're that close to Coastal, then go and visit them.  Buy stuff from them.   Then when you've an issue or a question, you've access to lots of support from Kevin. 

 

The Dapol locos you mention are awkward, being not designed with DCC in mind, and they're not that good as mechanism designs generally.   So, you might find that decoder fitting to those is expensive if you're asking someone else to do it.        

 

 

- Nigel

 

 

[GoingUnderground]

1 hour ago, topnoddy said:

..... I found it odd that given the what to me seems very hi tech electrics the controllers are still wired in .... 

 

Nowadays DCC is old tech, some would say low tech in today's world, as the first commercially available systems first went on sale in 1993.

 

If you want to go with the latest "bleeding edge" technology, that seems to be radio control using bluetooth with locos powered by an onboad battery.  

[SamThomas]

2 hours ago, GoingUnderground said:

 

Nowadays DCC is old tech, some would say low tech in today's world, as the first commercially available systems first went on sale in 1993.

 

If you want to go with the latest "bleeding edge" technology, that seems to be radio control using bluetooth with locos powered by an onboad battery.  

DCC will be around for the life of anyone on here. It will evolve as does everything but there is very little "built in obsolesence" the likes of which occur in the mobile phone world.

I seem to recall seeing some RC technology some time ago that interfaced with DCC.

 

Railway modellers tend to be very conservative - after all, there are still people who use a key & their hand to power their locomotives.

 

Lets not over complicate the simple questions posed by the OP.

 

[Oldddudders]

2 hours ago, GoingUnderground said:

 

Nowadays DCC is old tech, some would say low tech in today's world, as the first commercially available systems first went on sale in 1993.

 

If you want to go with the latest "bleeding edge" technology, that seems to be radio control using bluetooth with locos powered by an onboad battery.  

It may be old tech, but it works and can be very nearly all things to all modellers. Radio control sounds sexy, but is hardly realistic for a novice modeller in N. Fitting a battery in an 0-4-2 could be challenging. 

[GoingUnderground]

12 minutes ago, SamThomas said:

DCC will be around for the life of anyone on here. It will evolve as does everything but there is very little "built in obsolesence" the likes of which occur in the mobile phone world.

I seem to recall seeing some RC technology some time ago that interfaced with DCC.

 

Railway modellers tend to be very conservative - after all, there are still people who use a key & their hand to power their locomotives.

 

Lets not over complicate the simple questions posed by the OP.

 

Will it?  It probably will, but possibly only as a minority interest, much like clockwork, which, incidentally I do have, in the form of a 94 year old Hornby timplate O gauge 0-4-0 tender loco, the design of which was used for one of the models in last year's Hornby centenary celebrations, and 0-4-0 tank engines from the 1950s, and track and rolling stock to go with them. I also use DC for my Triang models, as well as DCC for my newer kit.

 

I'm sure that many thought the same about using AC to power smaller gauge (4mm and below) locos in the 1930s and possibly 3rd rail. Both are still very much alive and kicking in H0 gauge in 2021 through Maerklin, but in the UK AC seems to be confined to tinplate O gauge, and 3rd rail only lives on for Dublo enthusiasts or Maerklinists both of whom are thin on the ground on this island, or for vintage outdoor layouts such as Bekonscot.  

 

6 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

It may be old tech, but it works and can be very nearly all things to all modellers. Radio control sounds sexy, but is hardly realistic for a novice modeller in N. Fitting a battery in an 0-4-2 could be challenging. 

You both misunderstood the point of my post. I was not advocating that the OP went with bluetooth as I thought my reference to "bleeding edge" implied. Clearly I was wrong in thinking that folks would understand.

 

I was simply replying to the OP's comment about wires still being used to connect the controller to the layout, and pointing out that DCC is not new, and that there are already wire-free alternatives around. In fact only the booster/power source needs to be connected by wires to the layout as there are hand held controllers or smartphone or tablet apps around that interface with the booster or master controller via WiFi.

[WIMorrison]

3 hours ago, GoingUnderground said:

 

Nowadays DCC is old tech, some would say low tech in today's world, as the first commercially available systems first went on sale in 1993.

 

If you want to go with the latest "bleeding edge" technology, that seems to be radio control using bluetooth with locos powered by an onboad battery.  

Utter tosh

[GoingUnderground]

18 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

Utter tosh

 

I'd be happy to reply to any factual errors that you can find in my post, otherwise I can only refer you to my earlier reply to SamThomas and Olddudders.

[SamThomas]

2 hours ago, GoingUnderground said:

 

You both misunderstood the point of my post.

 

I understood you perfectly & respectfully suggested that members refrain from over complicating things for a returnee.

 

I could pick holes in what you say but not on this thread.

 

At shows I hear many newbies/returnees comment about those who have superior knowledge/technical ability/wish to complicate simple things rabbiting on & putting people off.

Much the same here really.

 

Please feel free to have the last word on this thread.

[topnoddy]

Thanks again for the replies , i'm still at the planning stage of the layout at the moment so some more research is needed i think .

Planning on have a branch line and a mainline on a U shaped board around 3m by 2.6m so possibly run DCC on the mainline and DC on the branch line with the smaller non DCC locos . I'll call in coastal dcc and get some advice re the 14xx and 45xx first and take it from there 

[Dungrange]

6 minutes ago, topnoddy said:

so possibly run DCC on the mainline and DC on the branch line with the smaller non DCC locos.

 

Except you can't really run a mix of DC and DCC - it's one or the other.  If you want to use both, then you'd have to ensure that your mainline and branch line are truly separate railways, so that there is no possibility of a short between the two systems.  You can run a DCC fitted locomotive on a DC layout.  You can sometimes, but it's not advised, run a DC loco on a DCC layout (the DCC signal will make the DC motor buzz and ultimately damage it) but you need to ensure that nothing connects DC and DCC powered tracks (eg a loco across a track join).

Edited June 14, 2021 by Dungrange

[Nigelcliffe]

4 minutes ago, topnoddy said:

Thanks again for the replies , i'm still at the planning stage of the layout at the moment so some more research is needed i think .

Planning on have a branch line and a mainline on a U shaped board around 3m by 2.6m so possibly run DCC on the mainline and DC on the branch line with the smaller non DCC locos . I'll call in coastal dcc and get some advice re the 14xx and 45xx first and take it from there 

 

I strongly advise against a mixed DC and DCC layout, unless there is NO physical track connection between the two.  If you accidentally connect the DC and DCC together, there's a fair chance of something going "pfff" and some expensive smoke emerges from a now dead control system.   Isolation sections and switches needs massive thought to cover every possible grade-1 idiot mistake which could connect the two.  

 

If you want to be able to swap between DC and DCC for the whole layout, that's less of an issue.  Just have a foolproof method of swapping over (such as a single big double-pole switch to go from DC to DCC, with an "off" position between the two). 

 

Chipping the 14xx and 45xx is not impossible, but it may be tricky.  And the mechanisms are not the best (understatement!).  

If you plan to run the 14xx always with an auto-trailer, then there is an argument to put the chip and some extra pickups in the auto-trailer (could even have sound that way). 

 

 

- Nigel

 

 

[GoingUnderground]

4 hours ago, SamThomas said:

I understood you perfectly & respectfully suggested that members refrain from over complicating things for a returnee.

 

I could pick holes in what you say but not on this thread.

 

At shows I hear many newbies/returnees comment about those who have superior knowledge/technical ability/wish to complicate simple things rabbiting on & putting people off.

Much the same here really.

 

Please feel free to have the last word on this thread.

Thank you for giving me permission to reply, most gracious of you.

 

And thank you for the, in my view unjustified, compliment that I have superior knowledge/techincal ability even though I know that I don't, especially not when it comes to bluetooth or remote control systems. I know of their existence simply from what I've read on RMWeb and elsewhere over the last 15 or so years since I returned to the hobby. Neither did I have any wish to complicate matters for the OP. The OP raised the issue of wires, not me, and I am sure that they are quite capable of deciding what they want to do themselves. And I hardly regard a 2 line, 51 word post as "rabbiting on" as you put it.

 

And please feel free to pick as many holes in my posts as you want, I'd hate you to get bored. But don't be surprised if I reply.

 

And I apologise to the OP for this distraction.

Edited June 14, 2021 by GoingUnderground

[topnoddy]

1 hour ago, Dungrange said:

 

Except you can't really run a mix of DC and DCC - it's one or the other.  If you want to use both, then you'd have to ensure that your mainline and branch line are truly separate railways, so that there is no possibility of a short between the two systems.  You can run a DCC fitted locomotive on a DC layout.  You can sometimes, but it's not advised, run a DC loco on a DCC layout (the DCC signal will make the DC motor buzz and ultimately damage it) but you need to ensure that nothing connects DC and DCC powered tracks (eg a loco across a track join).

It was just an idea , if i went with it the two lines would be entirely separate from each other .

[topnoddy]

1 hour ago, Nigelcliffe said:

 Chipping the 14xx and 45xx is not impossible, but it may be tricky.  And the mechanisms are not the best (understatement!).  

If you plan to run the 14xx always with an auto-trailer, then there is an argument to put the chip and some extra pickups in the auto-trailer (could even have sound that way). 

 

 

- Nigel

 

 

I like the idea of fitting the chip in the auto-trailer , sounds like a very good option 

[dpgibbons]

The Dapol 14xx and 45xx are usually poor runners and have little internal space for a decoder, so they are not easy conversions. However, I find they run a lot better under DCC.

[Michael Hodgson]

12 hours ago, topnoddy said:

It was just an idea , if i went with it the two lines would be entirely separate from each other .

Still not a good idea all the same.  Problem is that sooner or later a loco will be placed on the wrong bit of the layout, accidental contact with a stray length of wire while you're sorting out some problem etc, even a drinks can in the wrong place - sod's law applies.

 

Less of an issue if it's a section of narrow gauge where you can't put loco on the wrong rails

[WIMorrison]

@topnoddy whilst I agree that it isn’t good practice to mix DC and DCC, it can be done and without fatalities.

 

if you place a DCC loco onto DC then provided you have configured the decoder correctly then the DCC loco will run on DC quite happily, though you may not get many or any of the functions depending on the decoder used.

 

Placing a DC loco on DCC isn’t a good idea and you will hear why the instant you place the loco on the track. It won’t damage the loco if you lift it off immediately, but don’t leave it there for more than a minutes or so.

 

In your case if you plan the DC section wiring correctly then you would simply swap it to DCC once all your locos have been converted and you can then run everything from one controller.

 

I will give one word of warning though, do not mix the wiring up and don’t try to get ‘clever’ by enabling sections to run on DC or DCC, stick to one power type for each part of the layout and also rely on the hand-of-God to move the locos between DC and DCC

[RobinofLoxley]

I saw a mixed layout in N gauge at Warley/NEC in 2019 possibly 2018.