The Tank Museum and what the NRM is missing.

[OnTheBranchline]

While watching The Tank Museum's YouTube channel, I was blown away by the amount of content that the museum makes and they really make an effort to appeal to everyone (not just in the UK). When I look up The National Railway Museum on YouTube, it's a bit pathetic with the majority of videos from at least 5 years ago. All they would need is someone to talk about the various locos around the museum (even go on tour to various railways) but there's nothing.

 

Anyone agree?

[tomparryharry]

The Tank Museum is next to Bovington camp. It is a working military camp, with real people.  The curators & conservators are all ex-military, with a semi self- supporting cast of volunteers who have practical, first-hand knowledge of the exhibits within their care. The Museum is an international museum, where exhibits are hosted, and lent out on a semi industrial scale.  Naturally, there is a very strong & close relationship with staff, technicians, Army cadets, serving soldiers, etc, who will come and admire, and fully realise that a tank is a home and a coffin, both in the same instance. 

 

A lot of the public audio-visual at Bovington is courtesy of David Fletcher, and David Willey. Both of these gents are world-renowned historians, who can deliver  facts with absolute certainty, gained through first-hand practical knowledge. 

 

It's a bit unfair on the NRM, where there is no first-hand practical knowledge left. The operating staff left a long time ago...  One curator at the NRM was noted by quoting... "We can always buy knowledge... " Sure, but where?

 

If you want to see trains in the landscape, try the Great Central, or, Pendon. 

 

 

[Joseph_Pestell]

The Tank Museum is indeed impressive. And I can testify also to the great work that the team there do in helping other Dorset tourism businesses.

 

I do wonder though about putting too much on YouTube (and other social media). Is there not a risk of losing potential visitors as they can see everything from the comfort of their own home?

[Reorte]

4 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

I do wonder though about putting too much on YouTube (and other social media). Is there not a risk of losing potential visitors as they can see everything from the comfort of their own home?

Whilst that can't be ruled out as a possibility, personally speaking if it's something that tweaks a bit of interest in me then the more I see online (or TV, or in a book, or anywhere other than in the flesh) the more I want to see it for real.

[AY Mod]

1 hour ago, tomparryharry said:

It's a bit unfair on the NRM, where there is no first-hand practical knowledge left

 

I would disagree.

 

 

Anthony has plenty of hands-on knowledge and is a natural. What he's probably short of is time (to entertain people for no benefit).

 

[AMJ]

I'd recommend watching Anthony Dawson on YT, he is associated with various museums and doesn't necessarily put the NRM branding on content.  Plus he has written various historical books including one about Liverpool and Manchester Rly. 

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC75PkfxmwyEM6RrVStVwqwQ

[ELTEL]

Excellent video, more please 

 

[OnTheBranchline]

2 hours ago, tomparryharry said:

The Tank Museum is next to Bovington camp. It is a working military camp, with real people.  The curators & conservators are all ex-military, with a semi self- supporting cast of volunteers who have practical, first-hand knowledge of the exhibits within their care. The Museum is an international museum, where exhibits are hosted, and lent out on a semi industrial scale.  Naturally, there is a very strong & close relationship with staff, technicians, Army cadets, serving soldiers, etc, who will come and admire, and fully realise that a tank is a home and a coffin, both in the same instance. 

 

A lot of the public audio-visual at Bovington is courtesy of David Fletcher, and David Willey. Both of these gents are world-renowned historians, who can deliver  facts with absolute certainty, gained through first-hand practical knowledge. 

 

It's a bit unfair on the NRM, where there is no first-hand practical knowledge left. The operating staff left a long time ago...  One curator at the NRM was noted by quoting... "We can always buy knowledge... " Sure, but where?

 

If you want to see trains in the landscape, try the Great Central, or, Pendon. 

 

 

But in this Covid world that we live in, social media is essential to being relevant in order to be enticing when things open back up again.

[tomparryharry]

I have also met Mr. Coulls. An absolute gent. Like all excellent curators, Anthony has the gift of putting things over in a highly informative, friendly way. 

 

I think it's down to presentation. No, not presenters, but the subject matter.  Both museums are international museums. Answering this post made me realise how many parallels they have. 

 

I guess it's because Bovington has pretty much all of their exhibits in one place. You can't exactly loan out a Conqueror to McArthur Glen in Swindon; It's a bit out of context....

 

If you wanted to see locomotives 'giving the beans' you wouldn't do any better than watching Black 5  44871 racing against   Britannia on the Scarborough Spa. Seeing both of those locos in tip-top condition makes the hairs on my neck stand up . Seeing these doing exactly what they're designed to do.. Well, you can't get any better.  If I need cheering up,  over to Youtube.

 

I suppose it would be extremely difficult to re-run a King on a full express.  Mind you, letting off a 120mm round at Lulworth? Hmm...

 

Don't get caught in Mr. Fletchers moustache...

[durham light infantry]

15 hours ago, OnTheBranchline said:

While watching The Tank Museum's YouTube channel, I was blown away by the amount of content that the museum makes and they really make an effort to appeal to everyone (not just in the UK). When I look up The National Railway Museum on YouTube, it's a bit pathetic with the majority of videos from at least 5 years ago. All they would need is someone to talk about the various locos around the museum (even go on tour to various railways) but there's nothing.

 

Anyone agree?

 

The Tank museums funding and remit is completely different to the NRM, and to compare a small part of content is very disengenuous.

 

The NRM is free at the point of entry, and the funding has been effectively diminishing in real terms for many years.  Anthony Coulls is a true enthusiast and does far more than his role entails. He is also extremely professional and circumspect about what he does, he is following the brief from those higher up in the NRM.

 

The NRM could be like the Tank museum, but the political and cultural landscape of this country would need to very different. Unlikely to happen.

Edited July 29, 2021 by durham light infantry
Spelling mistake...

[Mike Bellamy]

5 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 I can testify also to the great work that the team there do in helping other Dorset tourism businesses.

 

I was very pleased that Bovington is so close to 'Monkey World' (only two miles) so my wife got what she wanted and so did I - and yes I chose the tanks !!

[phil-b259]

4 hours ago, durham light infantry said:

 

The NRM is free at the point of entry, and the funding has been effectively diminishing in real terms for many years. 

 

 

And THAT is the key difference.

 

Museums that charge an entry fee will generally have more cash to spend and also have an emphasis on keeping their stuff in their own hands to maximise visitor draw.

 

National museums (i.e. those which get a pitiful grant from the DCMS) not only lack funds, there is immense political pressure to do what the DCMS (or more precisely the consultants they hire* say) even if it is 'dumbing down' or side-lining the exhibits in favour of 'retail opportunities'.

 

Its telling how many of our national museums changed from boring stuffy places in the 1990s once the Conservative Government of the era made them charge for entry. Suddenly their was a real focus and ephemeris on attracting people with exciting displays and things to keep them entertained for a whole day.

 

Regrettably given MPs and groups representing low income families will create a political s*******m if charging were ever to be reintroduced, I cannot see things improving, particularly in the post Covid world where the thumbscrews on Government departmental spending will be tightened further rather than loosened.

 

 

* Like most of Whitehall any real experience was ditched a long time ago, sacrificed to the alter of outsourcing and the private sector always knows best.

 

[Gibbo675]

17 hours ago, tomparryharry said:

It's a bit unfair on the NRM, where there is no first-hand practical knowledge left. The operating staff left a long time ago...  One curator at the NRM was noted by quoting... "We can always buy knowledge... " Sure, but where?

 

If you want to see trains in the landscape, try the Great Central, or, Pendon. 

 

 

Hi Tom,

 

I can tell you from first hand experience that they do not wish to pay for that knowledge. I was head hunted by the NRM in 2008 to lead a team to rebuild that LNER A3 contraption, the package they offered was an insult and I told them as much. I also told them that the locomotive would end up costing three times what ought and be delivered three years later than expected unless they engaged a proper engineer for a proper salary rather than offering peanuts and milk bottle tops, along with the luxury of an old MK1 to sleep in.

 

I was completely wrong it ended up costing five times more than it ought and was seven years late. For the amount that the NRM wasted on that locomotive I could have quite easily organised the building of two brand new locomotives and a spare boiler. As for the cracks in the frames, the question I have is how did no one spot them during the overhaul rather than after it, especially as it was stripped to the frames and supposedly inspected.

 

The Human Remains woman at the interview told me how I was giving up the chance of working on an international icon. I told her I was giving up the chance of a huge pay cut and the chance to not sleep in my own bed !!!

 

http://www.rail.co.uk/rail-news/2016/national-railway-museum-reveal-four-and-a-half-million-pound-cost-for-restoring-flying-scotsman/

 

Still they knew best didn't they.

 

Gibbo.

Edited July 30, 2021 by Gibbo675
Adding Link

[Nearholmer]

One question I’d ask in connection with the OP’s point is: how many significant tank museums are there in the U.K. besides the main one? I think the answer is ‘very few’, although there are odd tanks preserved as parts of other collections.

 

In the case of railways, as we all know, the answer is ‘oodles’, in the form of heritage railways. Even if we leave out the minor heritage/preservation collections that are really only of hardcore enthusiast or very local interest, and think only of ‘the biggies’, the answer is still ‘plenty’.

 

To my mind, the heritage railway movement massively influences the way this component of our history is portrayed or presented, and puts ‘interpretation’ in the hands much more of hobbyists than museum professionals. Whether that’s a good, bad, or neutral thing from the perspective of accurate history I think could be debated at great length.

 

As a matter of opinion, I think that the NRM doesn’t come across at all well as a museum for the non-hardcore-enthusiast, and as a result possibly fails the ‘inform, educate, and entertain’ test that presumably applies to any tax-funded museum. That is probably partly a function of the ‘big and slightly random artefacts’ bias that the NRM started with as a result of the collections that it inherited, but it also flows from focusing very heavily on ‘the railways’, and much less on ‘the impact of the railways’.

 

A comparison with the LT Museum is interesting, because that manages to cover both the societal impact of public transport, and the technology of public transport, and has a lot more lay-visitor appeal. might the clue be the fact that, like Bovington, the LT Museum is intimately connected to the current entity, so heavily influenced by serving and recently retired transport professionals?

 

An interesting topic overall, and IMO a debate that needs to be had, because there seems, despite the efforts of diligent staff members, something not quite right about the NRM, and I don’t think that “it’s starved of cash” is the whole problem - there are museums that tell the story they have to tell on a shoestring. Is it, maybe, that the NRM isn’t sure what it’s story/purpose is?

 

 

[Johann Marsbar]

6 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

One question I’d ask in connection with the OP’s point is: how many significant tank museums are there in the U.K. besides the main one? I think the answer is ‘very few’, although there are odd tanks preserved as parts of other collections.

 

 

Haven't been there for years, but this is the only one that immediately springs to mind...

https://www.muckleburgh.co.uk/

 

.

[Gibbo675]

20 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

One question I’d ask in connection with the OP’s point is: how many significant tank museums are there in the U.K. besides the main one? I think the answer is ‘very few’, although there are odd tanks preserved as parts of other collections.

 

In the case of railways, as we all know, the answer is ‘oodles’, in the form of heritage railways. Even if we leave out the minor heritage/preservation collections that are really only of hardcore enthusiast or very local interest, and think only of ‘the biggies’, the answer is still ‘plenty’.

 

To my mind, the heritage railway movement massively influences the way this component of our history is portrayed or presented, and puts ‘interpretation’ in the hands much more of hobbyists than museum professionals. Whether that’s a good, bad, or neutral thing from the perspective of accurate history I think could be debated at great length.

 

As a matter of opinion, I think that the NRM doesn’t come across at all well as a museum for the non-hardcore-enthusiast, and as a result possibly fails the ‘inform, educate, and entertain’ test that presumably applies to any tax-funded museum. That is probably partly a function of the ‘big and slightly random artefacts’ bias that the NRM started with as a result of the collections that it inherited, but it also flows from focusing very heavily on ‘the railways’, and much less on ‘the impact of the railways’.

 

A comparison with the LT Museum is interesting, because that manages to cover both the societal impact of public transport, and the technology of public transport, and has a lot more lay-visitor appeal. might the clue be the fact that, like Bovington, the LT Museum is intimately connected to the current entity, so heavily influenced by serving and recently retired transport professionals?

 

An interesting topic overall, and IMO a debate that needs to be had, because there seems, despite the efforts of diligent staff members, something not quite right about the NRM, and I don’t think that “it’s starved of cash” is the whole problem - there are museums that tell the story they have to tell on a shoestring. Is it, maybe, that the NRM isn’t sure what it’s story/purpose is?

 

 

Hi Kevin,

 

The only one I can think of that is anything like would be Eden Camp near Malton.

 

The Churchill sat next to a roundabout near Leyland doesn't really count !

 

Gibbo.

Edited July 30, 2021 by Gibbo675

[phil-b259]

10 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

 

A comparison with the LT Museum is interesting, because that manages to cover both the societal impact of public transport, and the technology of public transport, and has a lot more lay-visitor appeal. might the clue be the fact that, like Bovington, the LT Museum is intimately connected to the current entity, so heavily influenced by serving and recently retired transport professionals?

 

 

 

 

 

Note what I said earlier about charging:

 

It costs £18:00 for and Adult to visit the LT Museum! - and if I am paying that kind of money I expect a quality all day experience. Fortunately the cash paid by all those ticket holders means the museum has sufficient funds to do just that.

 

Its a similar story with most Heritage Railways - they charge a decent entry fee / travel ticket so have more of an incentive / the means to make their offering a good one.

 

Yes the NRM (or whatever they have rebranded themselves as) might well have lost their way - but where is the incentive to innovate and attract more visitors when all that means is more wear and tear (unless you can get them to buy lots of overpriced snacks) plus staff to look after them.

 

I know its a deferent sector entirely - but take a look at the M6 Toll. Yes revenue hasn't come close to expectations - but on the flip side less use by vehicles (particularly HGVs) means the road surface is lasting way longer than predicted thus saving cash and also meaning staffing of the toll booths can be slimmed down too.

 

So in the context of the NRM less visitors = less expenditure / less staff will probably go down well with the Bean counters in Whitehall....

 

 

Edited July 30, 2021 by phil-b259

[Nearholmer]

I confess to not having kept up with LT museum entry prices, and I can see what you mean.

 

That having been said, I do know that a lot of their "message spreading", reaching the public of London, is done through "school outing" parties at very competetive rates, it being so popular as an outing that it can feel a bit overrun on autumn and early-spring weekdays. And, pre-covid it was very popular as a venue for corporate events in the evenings, which is a nice little earner. I used to hire the small theatre there for my quarterly team meetings - as an internal TfL customer I still paid, but it was better to recycle the money round the family than to hire externally.

 

Back to the NRM: might part of the issue be that it spreads itself too thinly, perhaps even that it is physically too big for its function? Maybe, and this will attract criticisms of heresy, it has too many trains on display, taking up lots of space, and not enough other ways of telling the story. TBH, I'm not sure I can put my finger on the problem, but when I last visited I knew there was one straight away.

 

PS: My worries about the NRM focus around whether it is engaging to non-enthusiasts, but its just struck me that maybe enthusiasts don't find it engaging either. Do "we", the enthusiasts travel to visit the NRM? How often? If not, why not?

 

 

Edited July 30, 2021 by Nearholmer

[D9020 Nimbus]

Well, pre-COVID I used to visit the NRM "reasonably often" — maybe once or twice a year — but only if I was visiting York anyway; it's probably a few years since I visited York specifically to see the NRM. If the free admission is the problem, personally I don't see that charging a fee should be a big issue — except for those who live in York, the main cost is going to be "getting there".

 

It seems a long time since the NRM last laid on a special event — the "Great Goodbye" (at Shildon) was the last I remember, in 2014 IIRC. Before that there was an event in 2008 to commemorate 40 years since the end of steam. Why didn't they repeat it in 2018? 
 

2025 marks 200 years since the S&D; I hope they are planning something for that.

 

One problem with the NRM, I guess, is that very little changes over a period, leaving little incentive for repeated visits. Shildon used to (maybe still does) have an extensive event programme; York, not so much…

[Andy Kirkham]

There never seems to be any possibility of a compromise between free entry and a (to me) eye-watering sum like eighteen quid. Couldn't the NRM charge something like a fiver, which would help top up the coffers but still not deter most visitors?

[spamcan61]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Yes the NRM (or whatever they have rebranded themselves as) might well have lost their way - but where is the incentive to innovate and attract more visitors when all that means is wear and tear (unless you can get them to buy lots of overpriced snacks) plus staff to look after them.

 

One does wonder, but then their 2019 figures show around 750K visitors (down 13% YoY mind you)

 

https://www.alva.org.uk/details.cfm?p=610

 

Whereas the Tank Museum managed around 200K from what I can make out:-

 

https://www.thewaryears.co.uk/thewaryearsblog/2019/12/10/marketing-the-tank-museum

 

 

[Andy Kirkham]

I've just been looking at the NRM's website https://www.railwaymuseum.org.uk/objects-and-stories/history-flying-scotsman and it commits a solecism that aways annoys me:

 

It remained this colour until 1963, when it was retired by British Rail. 

 

The anchronistic use of British Rail in a pre-1965 context. It's something I see quite often, even from writers who you think ought to know better.

 

[Nearholmer]

35 minutes ago, Andy Kirkham said:

eye-watering sum like eighteen quid

 

Welcome to the wallet-emptying world of the modern family day out.

 

£18 for an adult is by no means "out of kilter" for a medium-sized day out attraction, especially in Central London. Legoland at this time of year £42. A bird garden that merits probably three or four hours £10.95. Vintage airshow £39. National Trust house & gardens £13 (very good value this one!). Mid-size model railway exhibition ???

 

Then there's transport (petrol and parking, or train), plus food, plus the inevitable treat/souvenir.

 

I'm fully on-board with the ethic of free entry to the "core" national museums, but it definitely isn't without its problems, especially if they are given a giant remit and too little money to fulfill it properly, and the whole arrangement seems to create real problems for the "satellites", which seem to get the leftovers after the London HQ museum has eaten (I think NRM is a satellite of The Science Museum).

 

A plug for another one that seems to pitch well for a family audience, while being very educational and just very interesting: The ThinkTank, which is the modern version of Birmingham Museum of Science and Industry. £14 per adult, but you need a child with you to get the best out of it, because they really use the interactive stuff. 

 

 

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

Well, pre-COVID I used to visit the NRM "reasonably often" — maybe once or twice a year — but only if I was visiting York anyway; it's probably a few years since I visited York specifically to see the NRM. If the free admission is the problem, personally I don't see that charging a fee should be a big issue — except for those who live in York, the main cost is going to be "getting there".

 

It seems a long time since the NRM last laid on a special event — the "Great Goodbye" (at Shildon) was the last I remember, in 2014 IIRC. Before that there was an event in 2008 to commemorate 40 years since the end of steam. Why didn't they repeat it in 2018? 
 

2025 marks 200 years since the S&D; I hope they are planning something for that.

 

One problem with the NRM, I guess, is that very little changes over a period, leaving little incentive for repeated visits. Shildon used to (maybe still does) have an extensive event programme; York, not so much…

 

Special events usually cost a lot of money to host! You are gambling that everything from the weather right through the number of visitors will generate even more.

 

The other thing to consider is that in recent years some of the 'big events'* hosted by the NRM have failed to generate enough income to cover the costs (hint moving large chunks of machinery to York doesn't come cheep).

 

Thus, if, as an organisation, you are under the financial thumbscrews it can be very difficult to make a positive case to spend more money in the short term even if it bodes well for the long term (A cynic would say that the dead hand of the Treasury is making its influence felt...)

 

 

 

 

[Johann Marsbar]

When the various grants to cover costs during last years Covid closures were being handed out, I seem to recall that the running costs for the LT Museum were quoted as something like £30,000 a day.  How one arrives at that rather ubelievable figure is beyond me, but it was quoted on various sources, so one assumes it came from the Museum themselves.....!!

They got a grant of £1.75 million so that tends to indicate the figure was correct......