Looking at MR and L&Y advertised excursions, what’s the difference between a Break and a Van?

[MR Chuffer]

In the book The Skipton Colne Railway (Donald Binns), there are samples of Advertised Excursions and working arrangement from the 1880s, both MR and L&Y.

 

MR example 1: Colne to Bradford and Back (Pantomime Train) – Train to be formed of 1 First, 17 Thirds (a lot - unless 4 wheeled?), Break Carriage and 2 Vans
MR example 2: Bingley to Colne (en route to Blackpool) and Back – 17 Thirds, Break Carriage and 2 Vans.
MR example 3: Shipley to Cone (en route to Liverpool) and Back – 1 Saloon, 17 Thirds and 2 Vans

So a Break is perhaps a Break Third, and a Van is a full Break?

 

The L&Y Break spelling is what is on the MR leaflets, not mine…
 

Edited August 3, 2021 by MR Chuffer
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[corneliuslundie]

I have always taken it that a "van" does not have a brake compartment and a "brake" does, both having space for parcels, luggage, post or whatever. I think a vehicle with passenger capacity would not have been described as a van. You also of course got passenger vehicles with luggage compartments for long distance services, especially through carriages.

Jonathan

[Edwardian]

2 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

I have always taken it that a "van" does not have a brake compartment and a "brake" does, both having space for parcels, luggage, post or whatever. I think a vehicle with passenger capacity would not have been described as a van. You also of course got passenger vehicles with luggage compartments for long distance services, especially through carriages.

Jonathan

 

Yes, I think that distinction is sound.

 

On your latter point, however, 'Brake Thirds' are what railway companies that did not have the benefit of being the Great Western called "Van Thirds".

 

[Nick Holliday]

58 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

I have always taken it that a "van" does not have a brake compartment and a "brake" does, both having space for parcels, luggage, post or whatever. The LBSC in its carriage formations was very clear on the difference. I think a vehicle with passenger capacity would not have been described as a van. You also of course got passenger vehicles with luggage compartments for long distance services, especially through carriages.

Jonathan

Whilst I agree the distinction is sound, and what I would expect, the LBSC in its carriage formations was very clear on the difference. However, this would mean that the third train doesn't have any break vehicle amongst the 20 carriages. I'd expect to have break vans topping and tailing such a train, particularly as at the date (1880) it is unlikely that an excursion set of four wheeled carriages would have automatic brakes.

[Regularity]

1 hour ago, MR Chuffer said:

So a Break is perhaps a Break Third, and a Van is a full Break?

It will depend upon company policy: a brake-third on one railway may be a van-third on another.

 

Best to check with the relevant line societies, or any resident experts on the MR or LYR carriage terminology on here.

The rest of us will simply be speculating - which is fine, but it can create heat without light.

[Edwardian]

A 'van' could be a (passenger) brake van or a van, as said, without a brake compartment.

 

Railways of the period do not tend to used the term 'full brake' in my experience.

 

I often use 'Luggage Brake', being descriptive of what I mean, but 'Brake Van' seems more prototypical usage.

 

No doubt there are all sorts of exceptions and variations.

 

The difficulty, it seems to me, that 'Van' might be employed either to mean a passenger-rated/fitted luggage or perishables van, or, it might be an abbreviation for 'brake' or 'break van'. So. you'd have to follow Nick's advice to make sure you have brakes where you needed them.

[Brassey]

A brake third did not have a luggage compartment whereas a van third did. 

[Tom Burnham]

56 minutes ago, Brassey said:

A brake third did not have a luggage compartment whereas a van third did. 

I should have thought it would have been unusual for a brake third not to have any luggage space.  Not unheard of, but an exception - probably mainly on suburban trains.  However, even the South Eastern Railway close-coupled trains of 4-wheelers built in 1894-1899 had all the brake thirds with 3 compartments, whereas the all-thirds had 5, so that the guard and luggage space was equal to two compartments.  Even local trains would have carried large luggage, parcels, bundles of newspapers, mailbags and such like, in charge of the guard.

[Regularity]

As I said, local (company-specific) usage will vary. We can assume as much as we like, but what applies to the GWR (for example) may not reflect usage by the MR (for another example).

[Tom Burnham]

Going back to the original post (apologies for deviation), in the absence of definitions, I'd assume a "Van" was a luggage van, with or without guard's accommodation, but with no passenger compartments, and a "Break Carriage" would have a guard's compartment and passenger compartments.  No doubt terminology differed between pre-Group companies, though.

[MR Chuffer]

38 minutes ago, Tom Burnham said:

I'd assume a "Van" was a luggage van

Some interesting perspectives in the foregoing responses, but the"Bradford Pantomime Train" exampled, why would you need luggage space for a there and back excursion in a single day?

 

It left Colne at 2pm returning from Bradford at 11.35pm arriving back in Colne at 1.05am.

[Caley Jim]

The Caledonian called 'full brakes' Passenger Brake Vans (PBV).

 

Jim

[Tom Burnham]

3 hours ago, Caley Jim said:

The Caledonian called 'full brakes' Passenger Brake Vans (PBV).

 

Jim

As did the box of my Hornby O gauge example...

[TheSignalEngineer]

7 hours ago, MR Chuffer said:

why would you need luggage space for a there and back excursion in a single day?

Some excursion stock had beer lockers for use when chartered by social clubs etc.

Edited August 3, 2021 by TheSignalEngineer

[Andy Hayter]

7 hours ago, MR Chuffer said:

Some interesting perspectives in the foregoing responses, but the"Bradford Pantomime Train" exampled, why would you need luggage space for a there and back excursion in a single day?

 

It left Colne at 2pm returning from Bradford at 11.35pm arriving back in Colne at 1.05am.

 

 

 

 

luggage van used for bicycles, prams, invalid chairs etc?  Maybe even picnic baskets.

[wagonman]

22 hours ago, Brassey said:

A brake third did not have a luggage compartment whereas a van third did. 

 

That was definitely GWR practice. They had several designs of Brake 3rd, usually with the guard sandwiched in the centre flanked by a couple of 3rd class compartments either side. T27 is I think. Most were later converted to Van 3rds by converting the compartments at one end into luggage space.