Electric, Hybrid and Alternative fuelled vehicles - News and Discussion

[boxbrownie]

1 hour ago, TheQ said:

Mileage, I used to, for about 6 years, do 50,000 miles a year, for the last 22 years I've done 15,000 a year, from Christmas onwards it will be down to less than 4000miles per year..

 

The problem will be for me, that while most of the 4000 miles will be journeys or 10 miles or less, eminently suitable for an EV, there will be  2 journeys of 400 miles each way each year.. 

 

So at the moment a Small EV for the short journeys, will be most unsuitable for the long journeys requiring many more longer stops. 

A large EV with a good range, would be very expensive and not likely to be economic if you include depreciation..

So for the moment, it still looks like a small ICE car to be the next one..

 

Oh according to the latest data from MOT stations, prior to a certain epidemic, the average mileage per year had dropped to about 7000miles

 

Your eminently suitable for a decent Hybrid vehicle then, battery for the short journeys and when needed you have  long distance ability without stopping to charge once or twice on your two long journeys a year.

 

We have very much the same pattern of use, and on the occasional long journey (320 miles) we either plan the charging stops easily and build them into the journey, or go by train…..it depends how we feel or what we need to take with us.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, idd15 said:

However battery size is not everything as the greater efficiencies of the Hyundai Kona and Ioniq in 40KWhr form could perhaps work for us, though I think the fastest they can charge is similar to the Leaf.

 

Don't the Korean cars have battery cooling and so in practice drastically beat the Leaf's charging rate?

[idd15]

8 minutes ago, 30801 said:

 

Don't the Korean cars have battery cooling and so in practice drastically beat the Leaf's charging rate?

Possibly but EV database UK suggests there is not a lot of difference. Rapidgate was all a lot of forum and Youtube "froth" in my practical experience.

 

Cheers

idd

[boxbrownie]

8 minutes ago, 30801 said:

 

Don't the Korean cars have battery cooling and so in practice drastically beat the Leaf's charging rate?

Most EVs have battery cooling/heating nowadays, the new models anyway.

 

I think the early entry manufacturers (except BMW*) got caught out without fully developing the BMS systems well.

 

*at launch in 2014 the i3 had an extremely well designed BMS system which has proved extremely robust and efficient.

[boxbrownie]

5 minutes ago, idd15 said:

Possibly but EV database UK suggests there is not a lot of difference. Rapidgate was all a lot of forum and Youtube "froth" in my practical experience.

 

Cheers

idd

The Leaf was notorious for the battery overheating when rapids charging after a belt down the motorway and the system throttled down the charging rate to a trickle almost, it was absolutely fine for normal pattern driving around town and rural situations.

The second generation Leaf had much better air cooling, not sure if they have gone to liquid cooling yet though?

 

edit: my mistake it was the 40kw Leaf which had the issues with its bigger battery, it was improved with a software update apparently.

 

It was only on the periphery of my radar at the time, being a happy i3 owner 😉 

Edited April 27, 2022 by boxbrownie

[boxbrownie]

FYI

https://insideevs.com/news/341768/update-video-nissan-leaf-rapidgate-no-longer-a-problem/

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

The Leaf was notorious for the battery overheating when rapids charging after a belt down the motorway and the system throttled down the charging rate to a trickle almost

 

Muxsan make boot-mounted extender batteries for the Leaf. As a side effect having the capacity spread over two batteries means they run cooler. They have a video somewhere where they charge a stock 40 Leaf against one of their extended ones and the 40 is significantly slower.

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

Most EVs have battery cooling/heating nowadays, the new models anyway.

 

Mine doesn't. Charging peaks at 32kW.

I knew this up front of course but in practice it's a bit more annoying than I thought it would be especially now I have a dog and can't go inside the services and peruse the delights of WH Smiths.

[boxbrownie]

6 minutes ago, 30801 said:

 

Muxsan make boot-mounted extender batteries for the Leaf. As a side effect having the capacity spread over two batteries means they run cooler. They have a video somewhere where they charge a stock 40 Leaf against one of their extended ones and the 40 is significantly slower.

Oh yes, it was a real issue, no doubt of that but for most owners it never surfaced as the vehicle was never used in the circumstances that the issue arose.

 

For those it did affect it was a real problem.

[boxbrownie]

1 minute ago, 30801 said:

 

Mine doesn't. Charging peaks at 32kW.

I knew this up front of course but in practice it's a bit more annoying than I thought it would be especially now I have a dog and can't go inside the services and peruse the delights of WH Smiths.

I did say most 😄

 

The i3 in particular rapid charges very well, in fact it doesn’t start to tail off until about 85% and then only slightly, so the longest stop we’ve ever encountered when we were very low was 45 minutes, enough for a coffee, meal, relief break and sweets for the grandchildren when we get there, most stops on Rapids for us are about 20 minutes or so.

[SamThomas]

36 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

Who said it was about penny pinching or saving the planet?

No one.

 

I'm not against EV's at all - there are places for both EV's & ICE vehicles.

 

When Mrs T changed her last car two years ago we drove a Peugeot 2008 full EV (the only test drive car available). We were both determined to hate it, but came back impressed. We wer both very impressed with the performance (& I have had some very fast cars in the past).

Two reasons she did not go electric ;

1) Too expensive to buy &

2) Not being able to comfortably cover a 250m journey with a recharge on the way (a journey she woul make 3 or 4 times a year pre-covid). Being disable did not help in this respect.

 

Of course the ranges are much better now.

 

No, what really, really hacks me off is the constant bombardments "get a smart meter", "get an EV", "turn down your central heating", "insulated your home". In our household we will do what we can see saves us money, we will continue to recyle (which we were doing long before Greta was even a twinkle in her dads eye). We try (diffecult) to buy goods that have not been transported round the globe.

I admit that we need to take measures, but if we collectively (putting aside the carbon footprints of India, China & the situation in the Ukraine for a moment) reduce our impact on the environment then nature will easilly take care of the rest - nature is far, far more powerful than us.

 

We should be given the choice where we "sit" with our relationship with the environment.

 

Personally, my "gas guzzling chelsea tractor" *** is my only excess in life (except my model railway) as I do not smoke, only occasionally drink & am not one for jetting off halfway round the world 2 or 3 times a year. Overall as a household we do our bit, we have solar panels & try & use them efficiently - having said that, if the dishwasher/washing machine need to go on they go on. Our carbon footprint is probably reasonable.

 

Sadly, to me as a "driver" rather than an operator I find most modern cars (HGV's like DAF's too) are having the feel engineered out of them - almost devoid of roadfeel. No wonder people get into trouble on icy roads even with all the electronic driver aids to "help" them.

 

*** I also have a small tatty petrol hatchback for running around in, the gas guzzler does few miles, probably about 15% of my total miles. I'll keep my gas guzzle thank you, even if i have to run it on cooking oil. (To be clear, the last comment was a little TIC).

[Ron Ron Ron]

3 hours ago, Nick C said:

......To give an example from a modern IC car - a friend of mine had a BMW. The seal on the headlamp control computer failed, and water got into it. The replacement had to be specifically coded to the car, using main dealer only software - and that meant that the cost of repair was more than the value of the car. An economic write-off just for one bit of IT hardware...

 

That example demonstrates that the problem it highlights, most likely applies to all cars, whether ICE or EV; particularly with regard to expensive electronic components.

In that case, it's an ICE car that is expensive to fix.

 

Apart from that, there are very few mechanical parts to go wrong in an EV, as opposed to the much more mechanically complex ICE vehicle.

 

.

[Reorte]

5 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

That example demonstrates that the problem it highlights, most likely applies to all cars, whether ICE or EV; particularly with regard to expensive electronic components.

In that case, it's an ICE car that is expensive to fix.

 

Apart from that, there are very few mechanical parts to go wrong in an EV, as opposed to the much more mechanically complex ICE vehicle.

 

Part of the reason I have no issue with electric cars but no enthusiasm for electronic ones!

[Ron Ron Ron]

With due respect to the Nissan Leaf owners, I don't think anyone should be using that particular car as an example of much these days.

As good as it is, in many respects, the Leaf, even in mk2 form, is rapidly becoming "pre-historic" with regard to its technology and capabilities.

The Mk2 would make a relatively cheap and reliable run around, as a used buy, but I wouldn't measure it against many of the newer vehicles coming on-stream.

 

Anyone going to the Fully Charged Live event, being held at Farnborough this coming weekend, will see a large selection from the 50 plus different models of EV currently on sale, or about to go on sale, in the UK.

Kudos to Robert Llewellyn and his team for hosting the UK premier of several new EV models, including the VW ID Buzz and ORA Cat.

 

p.s.

I  caught my first sight of a Mercedes EQS last week.

Up close at a main dealership.

It's a limo and huge.

 

.

 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

With due respect to the Nissan Leaf owners, I don't think anyone should be using that particular car as an example of much these days.

As good as it is, in many respects, the Leaf, even in mk2 form, is rapidly becoming "pre-historic" with regard to its technology and capabilities.

The Mk2 would make a relatively cheap and reliable run around, as a used buy, but I wouldn't measure it against many of the newer vehicles coming on-stream..

 

Just been looking at Muxsan's website. They reckon a 40kWh Leaf with a 33kWh extender and CCS upgrade will charge at 90kW and go well over 200 miles.

I did consider an extender for mine but reckoned the stock Mii would be easier to sell on.

 

https://www.muxsan.com/English/products.html#nissan-leaf-battery-extender

[Ron Ron Ron]

3 hours ago, Hobby said:

 

Is it? Even without the trip abroad if you factor in UK holidays the mileage can still rack up, it's not as uncommon as you think, I'd suggest! And as Q suggests above it isn't just high/average mileage drivers that can get caught out. Hence, at the moment, a hybrid would still be my car of choice, a plug in with a battery range of 50 miles, please!

 

On that subject it's a shame that I've had no responses to my request for real world hybrid driving experiences, everything so far has been from EV users and useful that they are I just hope someone from the other side  would come in!

 

Hi Hobby,

Not a first hand experience, but a neighbour recently acquired a plug-in hybrid.

He and I were chatting about him changing his car, a while before he went ahead.

There were the same thoughts and concerns about going full-on EV...cost, range etc., so he decided that a plug-in hybrid would be the better option.

I spoke to him about his new car the other day and asked how he was getting on.

Apparently the ICE has only fired up twice in 2 months of ownership and he says he's not sure what sort of mileage will be done using petrol, now he's finding 90% of his trips can be done on battery alone.

He reckons he averages about 6,000 miles p.a. 

 

Wisely, he went for a personal lease and not a PCP, or any other finance arrangement, so runs no risk of depreciation or problems with saleability when it comes to handing the car back after 3 years.

 

 

.

[boxbrownie]

1 hour ago, SamThomas said:

No one.

 

I'm not against EV's at all - there are places for both EV's & ICE vehicles.

 

When Mrs T changed her last car two years ago we drove a Peugeot 2008 full EV (the only test drive car available). We were both determined to hate it, but came back impressed. We wer both very impressed with the performance (& I have had some very fast cars in the past).

Two reasons she did not go electric ;

1) Too expensive to buy &

2) Not being able to comfortably cover a 250m journey with a recharge on the way (a journey she woul make 3 or 4 times a year pre-covid). Being disable did not help in this respect.

 

Of course the ranges are much better now.

 

No, what really, really hacks me off is the constant bombardments "get a smart meter", "get an EV", "turn down your central heating", "insulated your home". In our household we will do what we can see saves us money, we will continue to recyle (which we were doing long before Greta was even a twinkle in her dads eye). We try (diffecult) to buy goods that have not been transported round the globe.

I admit that we need to take measures, but if we collectively (putting aside the carbon footprints of India, China & the situation in the Ukraine for a moment) reduce our impact on the environment then nature will easilly take care of the rest - nature is far, far more powerful than us.

 

We should be given the choice where we "sit" with our relationship with the environment.

 

Personally, my "gas guzzling chelsea tractor" *** is my only excess in life (except my model railway) as I do not smoke, only occasionally drink & am not one for jetting off halfway round the world 2 or 3 times a year. Overall as a household we do our bit, we have solar panels & try & use them efficiently - having said that, if the dishwasher/washing machine need to go on they go on. Our carbon footprint is probably reasonable.

 

Sadly, to me as a "driver" rather than an operator I find most modern cars (HGV's like DAF's too) are having the feel engineered out of them - almost devoid of roadfeel. No wonder people get into trouble on icy roads even with all the electronic driver aids to "help" them.

 

*** I also have a small tatty petrol hatchback for running around in, the gas guzzler does few miles, probably about 15% of my total miles. I'll keep my gas guzzle thank you, even if i have to run it on cooking oil. (To be clear, the last comment was a little TIC).

You replying to some body who owned a FFRR up until two years ago (while we had the i3) and before that a 2012 Boxster S and sold our 3.2L V6 Freelander last year, so definitely not a green here, we just prefer the way our i3 drives, and it’s only a second slower to 60 than the Boxster 😁

Edited April 27, 2022 by boxbrownie

[black and decker boy]

So for record purposes for those seeking facts.

 

the model 3 on CCS will charge at up to 350KW/h (if you find a unit capable).

 

I’ve never used one that powerful and the highest rate I’ve had is 175KW/h.

 

That’s clearly the peak rate into a preconditioned battery that is low on %, it tails off as it fills up but would still be in the 60-70KW/h range as it hit 90%. Supercharging beyond  90% isn’t recommended so the charge rate drops off slot and takes ages.

 

My typical supercharge is 20-25 mins and has never been more than 35-40mins.

[idd15]

2 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

With due respect to the Nissan Leaf owners, I don't think anyone should be using that particular car as an example of much these days.

As good as it is, in many respects, the Leaf, even in mk2 form, is rapidly becoming "pre-historic" with regard to its technology and capabilities.

The Mk2 would make a relatively cheap and reliable run around, as a used buy, but I wouldn't measure it against many of the newer vehicles coming on-stream.

 

Anyone going to the Fully Charged Live event, being held at Farnborough this coming weekend, will see a large selection from the 50 plus different models of EV currently on sale, or about to go on sale, in the UK.

Kudos to Robert Llewellyn and his team for hosting the UK premier of several new EV models, including the VW ID Buzz and ORA Cat.

 

p.s.

I  caught my first sight of a Mercedes EQS last week.

Up close at a main dealership.

It's a limo and huge.

 

.

 

Ooooh Harsh!

But yes the Leaf is getting a bit long in the tooth now relative to the competition. But still love it to bits compared to any Dino juice powered car I’ve had! 😍
 

See you at Fully Charged! 
 

idd

[AndyID]

5 hours ago, black and decker boy said:

So for record purposes for those seeking facts.

 

the model 3 on CCS will charge at up to 350KW/h (if you find a unit capable).

 

I’ve never used one that powerful and the highest rate I’ve had is 175KW/h.

 

That’s clearly the peak rate into a preconditioned battery that is low on %, it tails off as it fills up but would still be in the 60-70KW/h range as it hit 90%. Supercharging beyond  90% isn’t recommended so the charge rate drops off slot and takes ages.

 

My typical supercharge is 20-25 mins and has never been more than 35-40mins.

 

I think you mean 350 kilowatts (350kW). That's the instantaneous power delivery from the charger (it's the same as 469 BHP.)

 

Kilowatts per hour ( kW/h ) doesn't really mean anything. Kilowatt-hours are a measure of energy (not power). There does seem to be a lot of confusion about power and energy. It would be less confusing if energy was expressed in Joules or in this case megajoules (MJ) but I doubt if that's going to happen any time soon 🙂

[boxbrownie]

I thought it was straightforward, to me 42kw/h is a measurement of a (for example) battery will provide 1 kw for 42 hours, more or less.

[Hobby]

OK, simply put (please!) how does that relate to EVs, is there a measure we can use like we do with i/c engines (mpg). I seem to remember someone quoting some figures recently but it wen't over my head, so to speak, I see now that this will be the new way of calculating how much energy our EVs use, so a simple guide would be helpful.

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

I thought it was straightforward, to me 42kw/h is a measurement of a (for example) battery will provide 1 kw for 42 hours, more or less.

 

It is. Although Nissan quote the gross figure rather than available capacity and BMW give theirs in AH because they hate you.

[boxbrownie]

1 hour ago, 30801 said:

 

It is. Although Nissan quote the gross figure rather than available capacity and BMW give theirs in AH because they hate you.

Tell me about it, I can never understand why BMW do that, the only manufacturer I believe.

[boxbrownie]

1 hour ago, Hobby said:

OK, simply put (please!) how does that relate to EVs, is there a measure we can use like we do with i/c engines (mpg). I seem to remember someone quoting some figures recently but it wen't over my head, so to speak, I see now that this will be the new way of calculating how much energy our EVs use, so a simple guide would be helpful.

Kw/h relates to the battery size/capacity like gallons/litres in the fuel tank.

 

Miles per Kw relates to economy/efficiency like mpg.