Electric, Hybrid and Alternative fuelled vehicles - News and Discussion

[Ron Ron Ron]

37 minutes ago, 2ManySpams said:

Indeed! Just getting your head around all the terminology in the hybrid /EV market is a nightmare. Working out what some of the advertising jargon and slogans actually mean.....

 

Avoiding the advertising slogans, such as the awful, disingenuous "Self Charging Hybrid", there are only a few, simple categories.

 

41 minutes ago, 2ManySpams said:

The V60, subject to the battery ever arriving, is effectively a petrol car that has regenerative braking and an electrical assist.

 

A Mild Hybrid - MHEV.

It does what it says on the tin.

Can be petrol or diesel.

 

The electrical assistance kicks-in and helps where most demand would be on fuel consumption.

Moving off from a standing start or low speed and when accelerating hard and putting a load on the engine.

It's more of a stopgap measure to reduce emissions and help lower fuel consumption, until the transition to electric has taken place.

A pity we weren't using this technology 20 years ago.

 

 

46 minutes ago, 2ManySpams said:

The loan XC60 hybrid has the above but a bigger battery that can be charged and motors that can run instead of the petrol engine.

 

A Plug-in Hybrid - PHEV

You could say this is a  "proper hybrid".

The car can run on pure electric propulsion.

The latest Mercedes PHEV's can do over 60 miles on battery power alone. Enough for 2 or 3 days of regular commuting and daily use, for the vast majority of drivers.

 

 

.

[Ron Ron Ron]

 

 

A direct competitor and more advanced than the Nissan Leaf.

Due in Sept or Oct this year.

 

 

.

 

Edited July 7, 2022 by Ron Ron Ron

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Fenman said:

Your point about the complexity of hybrid types seems to me to be well-made. My suspicion is that they have been introduced to overcome the terrors of the new (ie, EVs) which terrors, judging by this thread, are experienced by many people*. The experience seems to be that when you live with an EV all those terrors disappear; but if you have never done so, it's comforting to have a car which has the option of burning fossil fuels. 

 

I was reading the comments on a YouTube video about how long you need to be stationary for start-stop on a conventional ICE engine to save you fuel (~7 seconds)

They struck me in tone as being the same as the comments on any EV content you see. All sky falling in and turning the milk in cows' udders sour.

[Guest]

52 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

A direct competitor and more advanced than the Nissan Leaf.

 

Pretty much everything is more advanced than the Leaf. It's barely changed from its 2011 launch. That would make it old even in ICE terms.

I don't see much reason to buy one now unless you get a really good deal on it.

[admiles]

I hate to be a nay-sayer but I'm honestly struggling to see the benefits of a hybrid car. We have a hybrid Toyota C-HR at work and it seems to be the worst of both worlds.  Very low range on electric and the engine cuts in over about 18mph(ish) so even driving around town it's nearly always running on petrol. It's fuel consumption is woeful for a 1.5 litre smallish car, about 35mpg (my 6 cylinder BMW is more economical). Its heavy so eats tyres and brakes and it's very sluggish.

 

I'm really at a loss to see why anyone would opt for this over the straight petrol version.

 

The worst bit is I might be lumbered with it after I move positions within the company I work for until the lease is up in Feb 2023.  I've looked at straight electric as a replacement but it's a non-starter with no charging available at home or work so it's likely its replacement will be a diesel.

[Nick C]

2 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

there are only a few, simple categories... A Mild Hybrid - MHEV. ...

My understanding, please correct me if I'm wrong, is that there's basically four levels:

 

Mild Hybrid: IC powered, with a bit of a boost from energy saved when braking, effectively the same as the KERS systems F1 cars had.

Hybrid: Powered by either IC or electric motor, but all the energy still comes from petrol/Diesel. 

Plug-in Hybrid: adds a bigger battery and a plug, so it can do a certain distance purely on electric before switching over to IC.

BEV - electric only.

[Ron Ron Ron]

2 minutes ago, 30801 said:

 

Pretty much everything is more advanced than the Leaf. It's barely changed from its 2011 launch. That would make it old even in ICE terms.

I don't see much reason to buy one now unless you get a really good deal on it.

 

Nissan need to move rapidly to replace the Leaf with a completely new model, if they haven't already got one in the pipeline.

 

They're moved on in leaps and bounds with the new Ariya, which is receiving excellent reviews and top plaudits from right across the motoring press and reviewer world.

 

The Ariya has been named the Auto Express car of the year for 2022 and will no doubt feature in a few other awards.

 

Reviewers like Thomas, from Autogefühl, who are normally hypercritical, have been very impressed.

With a bit of luck, Nissan can translate that success to a new Leaf replacement.

 

 

.

[Ron Ron Ron]

27 minutes ago, Nick C said:

My understanding, please correct me if I'm wrong, is that there's basically four levels:

 

Mild Hybrid: IC powered, with a bit of a boost from energy saved when braking, effectively the same as the KERS systems F1 cars had.

Hybrid: Powered by either IC or electric motor, but all the energy still comes from petrol/Diesel. 

Plug-in Hybrid: adds a bigger battery and a plug, so it can do a certain distance purely on electric before switching over to IC.

BEV - electric only.

 

Correct.

I didn't mention the other 2 as 2MS, hadn't specifically mentioned them.

 

Mild Hybrids can take different forms though, but best not get into that.

They're a stopgap solution for now, at best.

Many of the models that have gone from pure ICE to Mild Hybrid ICE, will be out of production in the next 5 to 8 years, never to be replaced with any sort of ICE component to their power train.

The manufacturers are flushing out the last ICE powered cars from their development cycles.

Some models already on sale, are in their last iteration as ICE powered vehicles. 

The last all-new models with ICE power, will be released between now and 2023/24.

After that it'll be midlife facelift models, until those cars are out of production.

Almost all R&D on ICE has stopped or is coming to an end.

 

 

.

[Ron Ron Ron]

48 minutes ago, admiles said:

I hate to be a nay-sayer but I'm honestly struggling to see the benefits of a hybrid car. We have a hybrid Toyota C-HR at work .......

 

The so called "Self Charging Hybrid".

A waste of space in the present day context.

Toyota, having dug their heels in and firmly planted their fingers in their ears, have resisted moving on to full EV, but they've woken up and realised they're being left behind.

Their ungainly named bZ4X BEV crossover, is the first of a dozen all-electric Toyota's to be released, over the next few years.

I've no doubt they'll keep up the "Self Charging Hybrid" B/S for a while yet, as they need to sell cars, like all the others.

 

.

Edited July 7, 2022 by Ron Ron Ron

[Nick C]

9 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

The so called "Self Charging Hybrid".

A waste of space in the present day context.

Toyota, having dug their heels in and firmly planted their fingers in their ears, have resisted moving on to full EV, but they've woken up and realised they're being left behind.

Their ungainly named bZ4X BEV crossover, is the first of a dozen all-electric Toyota's to be released, over the next few years.

I've no doubt they'll keep up the "Self Charging Hybrid" B/S for a while yet, as they need to sell cars, like all the others.

 

.

I guess it's a side-effect of how quickly things have been moving, but it's interesting to see how the companies that were at the forefront of EV technology have been left behind so quickly - both Toyota, who pretty much started off mainstream Hybrids with the Prius, and Nissan with the Leaf, are now way behind the competition.

[Ron Ron Ron]

48 minutes ago, Nick C said:

……..both Toyota, who pretty much started off mainstream Hybrids with the Prius, and Nissan with the Leaf, are now way behind the competition.

Indeed.

Both are now peddling fast to catch up and get new models out there.

It looks like Nissan’s new Ariya has jumped right to the front of the queue in the crowded EV SUV class.

Very high praise all round and early reviews are showing efficiency to be close to Tesla levels and ahead of the following pack, but with build quality and an upmarket interior to easily match the premium brands. 
 

That needed Leaf replacement can’t come soon enough.

 

.

Edited July 7, 2022 by Ron Ron Ron

[boxbrownie]

The KERS system strictly speaking is a mechanical energy storage device, we had a prototype system from the developer fitted to a transit a very long time ago, I’ve been retired over ten years now so maybe 14-15 years ago, it was a ceramic cylinder which was driven buy braking/ slowing of the vehicle and because of the very high tech virtually zero friction bearings ( this is why it worked) it would store the energy as rotational load for hours, something like 30K or more rpm, it would even still be rotating in the morning after parked all night, amazing stuff but quite heavy and impractical for production volumes.  Not even sure I still should be saying this 🫣

[Guest]

1 hour ago, boxbrownie said:

amazing stuff but quite heavy and impractical for production volumes.  Not even sure I still should be saying this 🫣

 

I think the Parry People Mover does the same thing but that's a tram.

[Hobby]

7 hours ago, Fenman said:

 

Your point about the complexity of hybrid types seems to me to be well-made. My suspicion is that they have been introduced to overcome the terrors of the new (ie, EVs) which terrors, judging by this thread, are experienced by many people*. 

 

 

I don't agree, it's nothing to do with any "terrors" but simply that currently there is no EV that can directly compete with the flexibility of an ice car. Hence the introduction of the plug in hybrid which can compete with the EV around town and the ice car outside on long distances. Until they get a truly long distance EV where there are no worries on range in any conditions its a good alternative.

 

5 hours ago, admiles said:

I hate to be a nay-sayer but I'm honestly struggling to see the benefits of a hybrid car. 

 

I've had this discussion before and it depends on the hybrid you are looking at. My mild hybrid does actually work well for what it does, the hybrids such as the Prius and Corolla are very poor, combining large ic engines with battery power that has no solo range which is a poor combination. The plug in hybrid with a range of 40 or so miles on pure electric power and a small ic engine (1.0l or 1.2l turbo petrol or 1.5l diesel) are an excellent combination until EVs finally get battery range sorted.

Edited July 7, 2022 by Hobby

[APOLLO]

This months (July 2022) edition of "Car Mechanics" magazine is mainly devoted to Electric & Hybrid vehicles, and is very interesting indeed. A 35 page supplement !! Several articles explaining the types of EV's, EV repair safety, EV DIY potential(not a lot), A 100,000 mile Nissan Leaf bought for £3500 (just before the buying panic started), -range depleted to 60 miles & rust issues also !!  Tesla Model 3 DIY service, Charging & sockets etc explained, Quite informative used EV reviews under £20K & under £15K

 

I found the issue very interesting & informative, even so my next car will be a smallish petrol 5 seater / 4 door estate or hatch. I find the whole EV scene currently (!!) expensive and a bit daunting at the moment. We will see what the future brings.

 

Brit15

 

 

 

 

[Ron Ron Ron]

31 minutes ago, Hobby said:

 

…..the hybrids such as the Prous and Corolla are very poor, combining large ic engines with battery power that has no solo range which is a poor combination. The self charging hybrid with a range of 40 or so miles on pure electric power and a small ic engine (1.0l or 1.2l turbo petrol or 1.5l diesel) are an excellent combination until EVs finally get battery range sorted.

A bit of muddled confusion there Hobby.
The Prius and Corolla are in fact the so called “self charging” hybrids and I don’t think they can do 40 miles on their batteries.

Was it a typo and you actually meant to type “plug-in hybrid” ?

 

 

.

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

I find the whole EV scene currently (!!) expensive and a bit daunting at the moment. We will see what the future brings.

 

It quickly becomes less daunting but prices now are nuts.

Back when I bought my four hundred mile Leaf in 2017 for £12k it was a no brainer. Now it's a much bigger leap.

[Hobby]

1 hour ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

A bit of muddled confusion there Hobby.
The Prius and Corolla are in fact the so called “self charging” hybrids and I don’t think they can do 40 miles on their batteries.

Was it a typo and you actually meant to type “plug-in hybrid” ?

 

 

.

 

Quite right  I'm on my phone and it always goes wrong! They have minimal range on batteries and only up to about 20mph and have a large ic engine, should have been plug ins with 40 mi range, I'll change it!

Edited July 7, 2022 by Hobby

[Ron Ron Ron]

1 hour ago, 30801 said:

 

It quickly becomes less daunting but prices now are nuts.

Back when I bought my four hundred mile Leaf in 2017 for £12k it was a no brainer. Now it's a much bigger leap.

It’s not just EV’s.

Prices of all new cars, including all ICE types, have gone up massively over the last 6 or 7 years.

 

Around 2015/16, an entry level VW Golf had a list price in the £17k - £18k range and a top spec. GTi  would have been around the £30k + mark.

Today, the cheapest trim level Golf, with the smallest engine, has a list price of around £23k OTR.

The same entry level spec. model can cost up to £26k depending on which engine is chosen.

Better trim level models range between £25k and £29k OTR.

GTi’s are listed from £33k to £39k.

That’s all before you add the cost of paint (all but one or two colours are an extra cost) or any other options.

 

Similarly, in 2016/17  the cheapest entry level Mercedes C Class saloon, with the smallest capacity engine, would have a list price under £29k

Today the list price of the cheapest model, is a few quid short of £40k.

Most models are sold in the sportier, more stylish trim level, rockin’ in at between £44k and £50k, depending on engine size and option packs.

 

Want a hot BMW 3 Series?

The M3 will set you back £78k ish, before you add carbon packs and other must have options.

 

Porsche’s best selling model is the Macan crossover/small SUV.

They sell loads of them.

Have a look at the prices !

 

 

 

.

[boxbrownie]

Sitting in car park and just noticed this on a Hyundai adjacent, seriously!

What next on a badge “4 Speed Wipers” 😂

[Metr0Land]

21 hours ago, admiles said:

I hate to be a nay-sayer but I'm honestly struggling to see the benefits of a hybrid car. We have a hybrid Toyota C-HR at work and it seems to be the worst of both worlds.  Very low range on electric and the engine cuts in over about 18mph(ish) so even driving around town it's nearly always running on petrol. It's fuel consumption is woeful for a 1.5 litre smallish car, about 35mpg (my 6 cylinder BMW is more economical). Its heavy so eats tyres and brakes and it's very sluggish.

 

I'm really at a loss to see why anyone would opt for this over the straight petrol version.

 

The worst bit is I might be lumbered with it after I move positions within the company I work for until the lease is up in Feb 2023.  I've looked at straight electric as a replacement but it's a non-starter with no charging available at home or work so it's likely its replacement will be a diesel.

 

I guess it depends on the car.  I bought a Ford Kuga MHEV 11 months ago and am delighted with it.  It has 2.5L petrol engine.  The petrol does cut in at 18-20mph BUT when cruising cuts out a lot so you can easily do 40mph on the flat on the electric once you've mastered the technique (ie knowing where and when you can ease off the accelerator). The computer choses which mode is best between electric and petrol.  MOSTLY when driving around Carmarthen it stays on electric.

 

The first few months of ownership were warm weather and I was averaging 58mpg - approx 40pct of mileage was electric and 60pct petrol.  By the end of winter I was down to 53mpg split 37/63.  As I've now done approx 8,000 miles it's slower getting the average mpg up, but I'm now at 55.3mpg split 40/60 again.  Not sure if I'll get up to 58mpg average again by autumn due to several months cold usage but fully expect to get at least 57 by end summer.  It's very hilly here but has been warm of late.  Yesterday I got 87mpg going to Carmarthen (15 miles mostly downhill) and 57mpg back (mostly uphill) averaging 72mpg which is quite typical in summer for me.

 

My dad had one of the Z cars type Zephyr 6's with 2.5L engine and it was almost impossible to get 30mpg, so to me getting 55mpg or more from a 2.5L engine still feels insane.

 

In fact I'm so impressed, and new car delivery is so lengthy I've already ordered a PHEV version for delivery manana.  This is supposed to give 35 mile range on solely electric and there are plenty of test drives on youtube of Kugas (and Escapes in North America) where people have proved this for themselves.  If you have a high proportion of drives which are 35 miles are less, you can get some incredible mpg values for the PHEV.  I personally know of someone who's getting 160mpg 'cos his partner is the primary user with a daily commute <35 miles.  Also if you do a longer journey and completely flatten the battery you still get about a third of your remaining miles on electric due to the wizardry and regen braking.  I've had this confirmed by friend and also check out ecodriver on youtube who compares cars like for like on the same 75Km/46 miles circuit.  

 

For myself the calculation seems to be that I need to get 102mpg from the PHEV (which I fully expect) to recoup the difference in list price between current MHEV and PHEV over 2 years, with petrol at £9 per imperial gallon.  Obviously the equation changes with price of petrol and the term you apply.

 

With the MHEV the electric driving is free of course.  With the PHEV it's tricky for me.  With the PHEV it's desirable to keep it topped up after each day's usage.  I have solar panels and the PHEV only needs a 13amp supply to trickle feed the top-up.  Even once I've got the car I'm not sure I'll ever be able to determine how much electricity I'll be paying for as against free electricity from my solar supply, but whatever it is it'll be cheaper than petrol!

 

 

[2ManySpams]

On 07/07/2022 at 13:58, admiles said:

I hate to be a nay-sayer but I'm honestly struggling to see the benefits of a hybrid car. We have a hybrid Toyota C-HR at work and it seems to be the worst of both worlds.  Very low range on electric and the engine cuts in over about 18mph(ish) so even driving around town it's nearly always running on petrol. It's fuel consumption is woeful for a 1.5 litre smallish car, about 35mpg (my 6 cylinder BMW is more economical). Its heavy so eats tyres and brakes and it's very sluggish.

 

I'm really at a loss to see why anyone would opt for this over the straight petrol version.

 

The worst bit is I might be lumbered with it after I move positions within the company I work for until the lease is up in Feb 2023.  I've looked at straight electric as a replacement but it's a non-starter with no charging available at home or work so it's likely its replacement will be a diesel.

 

Interesting to hear how different hybrids work. The XC60 recharge I have on loan only has a range on pure electric of 21 miles. In actual fact I've found it's more than that as the battery gets topped up by the regen braking.

 

In comparison to your experience, the XC60 doesn't have a speed where the ICE cuts in. Instead it runs off electric power until the battery is drained unless you absolutely floor it, when the ICE cuts in for a bit. 

 

If I was only doing journeys within the battery range I would hardly use the ICE and my mpg the other evening got up to 288. This dropped to 78mpg on the return leg as I'd used the battery on the outward journey and there was no plug in facility at my destination. The mpg is climbing again now as I'm doing short battery journeys again.

 

The lack of recharge point didn't matter though as I had the ICE to get me home. What I have found interesting is that the changeover from battery to ICE when it does occur is very hard to spot in terms of performance. Yes you get the noise from the ICE but there's no jolt or gap in power, very smooth transition.

 

For this particular car, I don't think it's the worst of both worlds, more complementary technology. It works very well and I can certainly see the advantages of the hybrid, even if the range is only 21miles. In my own mind though it doesn't make long term sense to be lugging the weight of both drive systems around and this must be an interim halfway house.

 

Would I buy an XC60 Recharge? Nope. It's a massive outlay in cost, the pure electric range is too short and I think better solutions will be on the market quite quickly. Hence I've gone for a MHEV.

[Metr0Land]

I should have mentioned in my post above that the Kuga MHEV is wonderfully smooth in terms of changeover to/from ICE, the only time you get a slight clunk is if you come to a complete stop and ICE cuts in or out.

[BR traction instructor]

A heck of an early start/commute to check out our new ID3 before paying for it/sort the details and actually get to test drive one yesterday. An 04.30 start from Silloth got me to the VW dealership in Stourbridge at 08.30 as they opened the doors. The test drive was very impressive…great driving position nicely high off the road in a very responsive ID3. The lack of gears & handbrake seemed unusual at first but the mental adjustment was as smooth & quick as the car. It may be ready for us to collect from Stourbridge on Thursday…looking forward to the lengthy journey back to NW Cumbria and learning to extract the highest range from it.

 

BeRTIe

Edited July 10, 2022 by BR traction instructor

[Vistisen]

On 09/07/2022 at 08:16, 2ManySpams said:

 

Interesting to hear how different hybrids work. The XC60 recharge I have on loan only has a range on pure electric of 21 miles. In actual fact I've found it's more than that as the battery gets topped up by the regen braking.

 

In comparison to your experience, the XC60 doesn't have a speed where the ICE cuts in. Instead it runs off electric power until the battery is drained unless you absolutely floor it, when the ICE cuts in for a bit. 

 

If I was only doing journeys within the battery range I would hardly use the ICE and my mpg the other evening got up to 288. This dropped to 78mpg on the return leg as I'd used the battery on the outward journey and there was no plug in facility at my destination. The mpg is climbing again now as I'm doing short battery journeys again.

 

The lack of recharge point didn't matter though as I had the ICE to get me home. What I have found interesting is that the changeover from battery to ICE when it does occur is very hard to spot in terms of performance. Yes you get the noise from the ICE but there's no jolt or gap in power, very smooth transition.

 

For this particular car, I don't think it's the worst of both worlds, more complementary technology. It works very well and I can certainly see the advantages of the hybrid, even if the range is only 21miles. In my own mind though it doesn't make long term sense to be lugging the weight of both drive systems around and this must be an interim halfway house.

 

Would I buy an XC60 Recharge? Nope. It's a massive outlay in cost, the pure electric range is too short and I think better solutions will be on the market quite quickly. Hence I've gone for a MHEV.

I thought I would add to your experiences. I have now driven a Volvo V60T6 recharge for 13 months. In that time, I have covered 30,000 miles. My model is a 2021 version, so it has the 10 kw battery with a range of about 25 miles. During the whole year, about 45% of my mileage has been driven on pure electricity. And the total mpg figure is now 58.8 mpg. That is not bad for a 2.2 ton car with 340 bhp!

My daily commute is a 30-mile journey each way. of which about 18 miles is motorway with an 85-mph speed limit. Unfortunately, it is not possible to charge the car at work (I’v been moaning about it for the entire year). I have developed a pattern of doing non motorway on the battery and using the petrol engine with the adaptive cruise control set to 85 mph on the motorways.

 

As for the engine recharging… it does that very well actually even on long highspeed trips. I drove back from the Hook of Holland to mid Jutland last weekend. Including where the autobahn speed limits allows, cruising at just over 110 mph. I had one stop during the 500 mile trip. I started the trip with an empty battery as I had no chance to charge the car on the ferry.

Some figures for that trip taken from the VOLVO app's driving log.

First leg was from Hook of Holland to Holdorf in Germany. speed limit on Dutch motorways is a lowish 62mph. Distance 204.5 miles duration 4 hours, average speed 51 mph. I regenerated 7.5 kW of power, the car used 6.9 kw and 5.1 gallons of petrol of this which resulted in 41mpg

The second leg took 5 and 5 minutes (including 15 minute stop in a queue  because of the tour de France  stage in Denmark. It was 326 miles , this gives an average speed of about 85 mph.

What is impressive here is the car regenerated, and used 13.1 kW. The higher speed gave a petrol consumption of 9 gallons or 36 mpg. Which is not too bad bearing in mind the 100+ mph cruises.

So, on the whole journey, I regenerated 20.6 kW which is twice the battery size. If I had the 2022/3 model with a 20Kw battery I would expect at least ¾ of my total mileage to be pure electricity powered, Hybrids do make sense for some drivers.

Edited July 10, 2022 by Vistisen