Electric, Hybrid and Alternative fuelled vehicles - News and Discussion

[idd15]

This page gives a useful comparison depending on use case

ZapMap Charging Price Index

 

HTH

idd

 

 

 

[OnTheBranchline]

On 13/01/2023 at 06:42, johnd said:

 

I could get it at that price in 1974 when I started to drive and then they had a ( potential) fuel crisis and issued fuel ration books to everybody who had a license.

 

And remember the forced black outs because the miners were striking?

[Metr0Land]

I recently changed from Ford Kuga MHEV to PHEV and was explaining to a friend that in current very cold weather electricity is now more expensive than petrol.  I'm curr paying 34p per kWh incl vat likely to rise to 40p in April, and petrol locally is now 139.9 for unleaded. 

 

Assuming we get some sunny weather in due course....  I SHOULD get some contribution from my solar panels which has been impossible since I bought the car, and any reasonable contribution would still make electric cheaper then petrol.  Anyway that's not the nub of my query.

 

In the local U3A branch at Newcastle Emlyn we're collecting for generators for Ukraine (£300 + vat = £360, though I believe that's a favourable rate that might not be available to me personally).  So my friend asked if that would be cheaper than electric, as portable generators need not be awfully large.  I must admit I've no idea on costings which would be say purchase price + variable petrol (or other fuel) price over say 2 years.

 

So can anyone say whether after April, on dull days (we have plenty in west Wales) a generator would be cheaper than mains electric at standard rate?  A max charge for my PHEV is 14kWh or so.

[Metr0Land]

Britishvolt collapse

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64303149

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Metr0Land said:

 petrol locally is now 139.9 for unleaded.

 

Bloody hell. I last paid 149.9 and that was the cheapest it has been round here since I've had a petrol car.

[Hobby]

South Wales, I suspect, they do have some cheap places down there, round here it's around £1.449 at the cheapest places.

[black and decker boy]

6 hours ago, Metr0Land said:

I recently changed from Ford Kuga MHEV to PHEV and was explaining to a friend that in current very cold weather electricity is now more expensive than petrol.  I'm curr paying 34p per kWh incl vat likely to rise to 40p in April, and petrol locally is now 139.9 for unleaded. 

 

Assuming we get some sunny weather in due course....  I SHOULD get some contribution from my solar panels which has been impossible since I bought the car, and any reasonable contribution would still make electric cheaper then petrol.  Anyway that's not the nub of my query.

 

In the local U3A branch at Newcastle Emlyn we're collecting for generators for Ukraine (£300 + vat = £360, though I believe that's a favourable rate that might not be available to me personally).  So my friend asked if that would be cheaper than electric, as portable generators need not be awfully large.  I must admit I've no idea on costings which would be say purchase price + variable petrol (or other fuel) price over say 2 years.

 

So can anyone say whether after April, on dull days (we have plenty in west Wales) a generator would be cheaper than mains electric at standard rate?  A max charge for my PHEV is 14kWh or so.

34p/KWh should equate to 13.5p/Mile based on Fords efficiency / range figures

 

on straight petrol, the 2.5l engine looks to do up to 50mpg which would be 13p/mile on your £1.39/l

 

local journeys around town of less than say 30miles total the electric should win out convincingly.

 

being a user of small generators at work, I can’t believe they would be efficient enough to lower your electric running cost below the 13p a mile and would simply be a huge hassle (and risk) to store, buy fuel for etc

[black and decker boy]

7 hours ago, Metr0Land said:

I recently changed from Ford Kuga MHEV to PHEV and was explaining to a friend that in current very cold weather electricity is now more expensive than petrol.  I'm curr paying 34p per kWh incl vat likely to rise to 40p in April, and petrol locally is now 139.9 for unleaded. 

 

Assuming we get some sunny weather in due course....  I SHOULD get some contribution from my solar panels which has been impossible since I bought the car, and any reasonable contribution would still make electric cheaper then petrol.  Anyway that's not the nub of my query.

 

In the local U3A branch at Newcastle Emlyn we're collecting for generators for Ukraine (£300 + vat = £360, though I believe that's a favourable rate that might not be available to me personally).  So my friend asked if that would be cheaper than electric, as portable generators need not be awfully large.  I must admit I've no idea on costings which would be say purchase price + variable petrol (or other fuel) price over say 2 years.

 

So can anyone say whether after April, on dull days (we have plenty in west Wales) a generator would be cheaper than mains electric at standard rate?  A max charge for my PHEV is 14kWh or so.

Looking at this small portable petrol genny for £270

 

https://www.nitrotek.co.uk/portable-outdoor-petrol-engine-generator-2-8kw-8hp-4-stroke-g6500w.html?gclid=Cj0KCQiAq5meBhCyARIsAJrtdr5ktbgL75TSZkydZ_62D8BUod5XsucptWM_WzNR5ZAFhJU_lVd-noIaAjNZEALw_wcB

 

It has a 2.6kw output so you are looking at 5.5 hours to charge your battery which from the data would be just over half a tank or 5 to 5.5litres of fuel. That’s 50p to 55p per KWh (cost of buying genny & Jerry cans, trips to buy fuel, oil & filters etc excluded).

 

your mains at 34p is still very much better value and much much lower carbon

[black and decker boy]

Something I’ve noticed over recent months that’s a new phenomenon for EV users:

 

There are an increasing number of EV work vans appearing. Seem to be filling up charging pints during weekday work hours.

 

I’ve noticed BT Openreach and Centrica/British Gas in particular quite a lot across the country.

 

good to see (unless your charger is full of them)

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, black and decker boy said:

There are an increasing number of EV work vans appearing. Seem to be filling up charging pints during weekday work hours.

 

I’ve noticed BT Openreach and Centrica/British Gas in particular quite a lot across the country.

 

good to see (unless your charger is full of them)

 

British Gas had a large fleet of 24kWh E-NV 200s early on. Some got used a lot, some sat in storage. If you see a used blue one for sale it will be ex-BG and have a diesel heater in it. I never saw one but I see a few of their new (Vauxhall?) ones running about.

 

MK Connect vans have been notorious for blocking most of the Milton Keynes charging hub for quite a while. Don't know if they still do.

 

[admiles]

Daft question maybe but can you use a PHEV without actually plugging it in and run it solely on the engine?   I get you're lugging about the traction battery for no benefit but is there actually anything "technical" stopping you doing this? 

 

Getting a replacement lease car is proving problematic to say the least!

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, admiles said:

Daft question maybe but can you use a PHEV without actually plugging it in and run it solely on the engine?   I get you're lugging about the traction battery for no benefit but is there actually anything "technical" stopping you doing this? 

 

Getting a replacement lease car is proving problematic to say the least!

 

Yep. It's fine.

You may be able so snaffle free electricity at supermarkets but I think they might all charge for it now.

[admiles]

1 minute ago, 30801 said:

 

Yep. It's fine.

You may be able so snaffle free electricity at supermarkets but I think they might all charge for it now.

 

Thanks!  Our nearest supermarkets both only have a couple of charging points that mostly seem to be out of use but I'm hoping charging infrastructure might improve in the three year life of the next car!

 

My current Toyota CH-R has died Hybrid due the the main battery failing. Because the lease runs out in February the leasing company are collecting it early so I have to choose something that's actually in stock to replace it.  Easier said than done!

[Ron Ron Ron]

40 minutes ago, admiles said:

Daft question maybe but can you use a PHEV without actually plugging it in and run it solely on the engine?   I get you're lugging about the traction battery for no benefit but is there actually anything "technical" stopping you doing this?  ……..

Market research found that many company car drivers of the first wave of Plug-in hybrids (e.g. the original Ionic, Golf 7 etc,) never charged their batteries up at all.

They had chosen the PHEV for tax reasons only and had no interest in using battery power, even if it had saved them money.

 

 

.

[admiles]

1 hour ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Market research found that many company car drivers of the first wave of Plug-in hybrids (e.g. the original Ionic, Golf 7 etc,) never charged their batteries up at all.

They had chosen the PHEV for tax reasons only and had no interest in using battery power, even if it had saved them money.

 

 

.

 

Mine is simply getting a car to use in a reasonable timescale.  Hybrids are cheaper to lease which the company likes too though honestly I'd rather have a decent diesel for the economy and range.

 

Don't have the option to charge at home or work hence asking about running a PHEV on the ICE only.

[sjp23480]

On 17/01/2023 at 21:30, black and decker boy said:

Looking at this small portable petrol genny for £270

 

https://www.nitrotek.co.uk/portable-outdoor-petrol-engine-generator-2-8kw-8hp-4-stroke-g6500w.html?gclid=Cj0KCQiAq5meBhCyARIsAJrtdr5ktbgL75TSZkydZ_62D8BUod5XsucptWM_WzNR5ZAFhJU_lVd-noIaAjNZEALw_wcB

 

It has a 2.6kw output so you are looking at 5.5 hours to charge your battery which from the data would be just over half a tank or 5 to 5.5litres of fuel. That’s 50p to 55p per KWh (cost of buying genny & Jerry cans, trips to buy fuel, oil & filters etc excluded).

 

your mains at 34p is still very much better value and much much lower carbon

Interesting "real life" article in Wales Online this week on using an electric vehicle: https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/motoring/motoring-features/how-easy-charge-electric-car-25989706 

 

 

[BR traction instructor]

We’ve done over 13,000 trouble free miles in our new VW ID3 since July 2022, still pay 14p or 34p per kWh on the two home chargers (Cheshire & Cumbria), only need to top up en route between the two if we’re running with lights & heaters on. A superb car that I would recommend to anyone.

 

BeRTIe

Edited January 20, 2023 by BR traction instructor

[black and decker boy]

2 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Market research found that many company car drivers of the first wave of Plug-in hybrids (e.g. the original Ionic, Golf 7 etc,) never charged their batteries up at all.

They had chosen the PHEV for tax reasons only and had no interest in using battery power, even if it had saved them money.

 

 

.

That certainly rings true from

my previous employer where the Outlander PHEV was the cad of choice for a time (for BIK tax reasons), as you say) but the company quickly worked out no one was plugging in when the Allstar bills came flooding in (mpg was horrific if run purely on diesel). These were then withdrawn and everyone in hybrids got the HMRC rate and had to take the risk on mpg.

 

quite a few PHEV got handed back as a result, those doing short mileages started to plug in.

 

move forward 4 years and there are now loads of PHEVs in the fleet, XC40s, Audis etc with happy drivers as the company provides type 2 chargers at its offices & sites.

 

my current employer is just rolling out EVs & PHEVs so everyone is on the learning curve but provide Allstar cards for fuel & electric so most seem to use the batteries 

[APOLLO]

Interesting, and a tad concerning for the average Joe.

 

Don't expect to see cheap electric cars anytime soon! Kia boss warns small EVs are 'economically difficult' to bring to market due to high battery costs

Kia UK chief executive says battery costs are the major hurdle for smaller EVs

 

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/electriccars/article-11665917/Kia-boss-Cheap-small-electric-cars-economically-difficult-high-battery-costs.html

 

Also this

 

 

Not what you call affordable motoring! There are just THREE new electric cars on sale today for less than £30,000 as Britons are priced out of EV ownership

Only the MG4, Nissan Leaf and Mini Electric are on sale new for less than £30k

The cheapest petrol car is the Dacia Sandero - from £12,995, it's half the price

Experts say 'action needs to be taken soon' so customers can afford to switch

 

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/electriccars/article-11558127/Cheapest-electric-cars-three-models-available-new-30-000.html

 

 

Brit15

Edited January 24, 2023 by APOLLO

[johnofwessex]

Scraping the ise off the car started me thinking

 

IC engined vehicles have plenty of heat from the engine to warm the passenger compartment.

 

EVs by contrast have to use power from the battery to provide heat reducing range in cold weather.

 

While its not going to make a huge difference has any thought been given to insulating electric cars and vans to reduce the heating/cooling load?

 

 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, johnofwessex said:

Scraping the ise off the car started me thinking

 

IC engined vehicles have plenty of heat from the engine to warm the passenger compartment.

 

EVs by contrast have to use power from the battery to provide heat reducing range in cold weather.

 

While its not going to make a huge difference has any thought been given to insulating electric cars and vans to reduce the heating/cooling load?

 

 

 

I have a feeling some already are...

Also scraping the ice off is not a thing you have to do with an EV since they all have timed pre-heating :)

ICE cars may have plenty of heat but it doesn't turn up until you're a couple of miles down the road 🥶

[BR traction instructor]

Heated seats & steering wheel are powered by the leisure battery in the VW ID3 and don’t drain the main battery. Plenty of heat/warmth directly applied to the body.

 

BeRTIe

Edited January 24, 2023 by BR traction instructor

[2ManySpams]

3 minutes ago, johnofwessex said:

Scraping the ise off the car started me thinking

 

IC engined vehicles have plenty of heat from the engine to warm the passenger compartment.

 

EVs by contrast have to use power from the battery to provide heat reducing range in cold weather.

 

While its not going to make a huge difference has any thought been given to insulating electric cars and vans to reduce the heating/cooling load?

 

 

 

I suspect a big chunk of the heat loss is through the glazing. I can't see a move to double glazing for cars with a 20mm+ vacuum in between panes any time soon.

[black and decker boy]

3 minutes ago, johnofwessex said:

Scraping the ise off the car started me thinking

 

IC engined vehicles have plenty of heat from the engine to warm the passenger compartment.

 

EVs by contrast have to use power from the battery to provide heat reducing range in cold weather.

 

While its not going to make a huge difference has any thought been given to insulating electric cars and vans to reduce the heating/cooling load?

 

 

The batteries actually get warm with sustained use. Not sure but possible the heat pumps fitted to many EVs might be able to extract that for cabins.

 

my original Model 3 (no heat pump) list approx 10% range in winter. Colleagues with the face lifted version with heat pump reckoned they lost very little range.

 

my current hire car, the EQB, seems quite horrific in winter with a useable range of approx 180miles vs a WLTP range of 250+
 

don’t forget that ICE cars lose range too as MPG falls for the exact same reasons.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, 2ManySpams said:

 

I suspect a big chunk of the heat loss is through the glazing. I can't see a move to double glazing for cars with a 20mm+ vacuum in between panes any time soon.

 

Actually vacuum double glazing is very thin. But still don't expect it in cars any time soon :)