Port of London Authority (PLA) Brake Van Liveries

[Black Marlin]

Hi all.

Hornby has given us the lovely Peckett; Oxford Rail & Golden Valley Hobbies have given us the Janus and some 7-plank PLA wagons; but no one has yet provided a brake van to finish off the train. Happily, I was able to find a photo on Flickr that shows what appears to be an ex-LNER Toad B in service as a PLA brake van (you can see it here immediately behind the locomotive). Hornby makes one RTR; Parkside makes (or possibly made, as I'm not sure if it's still in production) one as a kit. But in what livery should it be (re)painted?

Any help gratefully received!
Many thanks,
Gavin
 

 

[justin]

The book PLA Railways published in 1952 doesn't unfortunately mention livery but gives the internal wagon fleet totals as:

310 open wagons

38 box vans,

120 flat wagons (it doesn't specify if these are four wheel or bogie)

77 insulated vans

2 glass wagons

1 weed killer wagon

1 break down van

3 brake vans. The book states that the brake vans were kept for use on the high level line at the Royal Victoria Dock

[Wickham Green too]

Odd that they needed insulated vans for what should have been only short journeys within the docks - BR vehicles being used for anything beyond ( and an increasing proportion of road haulage by that date ).

[justin]

16 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

Odd that they needed insulated vans for what should have been only short journeys within the docks - BR vehicles being used for anything beyond ( and an increasing proportion of road haulage by that date ).

Though I am not familiar with working practices at the docks items such as chilled meat coming out of refrigerated ships would need to be kept as cool as possible prior to movement to chill stores within the docks and work flows perhaps sometimes meant the transfer wasn't instantaneous. The vans would have offered a temporary store that reduced the warming of these products if movement into the chilled warehouse was delayed by a couple of hours.

[Artless Bodger]

The crates in mineral wagons look interesting, stencilled Vauxhall Cars - too small for a whole car, so parts perhaps? How are the crates secured in the wagons, no sign of any ropes so some sort of dunnage packing? Not delicate obviously or they would be in shock wagons. No details on the Flikr page.

[SDuhig]

Very interested in this subject.

The list above that there were only 3 Brake vans on PLA, and their disposition, is particularly interesting.

 

I am currently building a Slaters MR single veranda type, but for PLA.

PLA Livery was it seems quite a bright bauxite red/brown.

 

This one is an ex-MR or *ex-SER, but no idea what the LBL was on the side for?

https://flickr.com/photos/beechwoodphotography/52136272257/in/datetaken/

I have seen another poor shot suggesting a similar brake van but this time a six-wheeler?

*See Rapido UK, SER Brake van release announcement 8-) ?

 

This one looks like a cut down single veranda ex-GER 20T Brake?

https://flickr.com/photos/beechwoodphotography/51981684241/in/datetaken/

 

I would like a couple of Parkside PalVan kits and some vans and (correct, unlike the GV set) open wagons too...

 

Steven Duhig

[coline33]

Is anyone still following this topic, please?

[Gordon A]

Yes, but cannot see the Flikr pictures.

[coline33]

Thanks, Gordon.   If anyone wants to have more detail on PLA brakes, vans and wagons for modelling then please let me know.   With the forthcoming release of PLA loco 56 used at Millwall Docks, I still have my 1982 "Model Trains" article "The Millwall Circle" to help with its background.   Colin.

[Compound2632]

I don't have any information on PLA brake vans but in 1920 the Midland Railway sold to the PLA 180 old 8-ton wagons, 50 of which had previously been on loan. There is photographic evidence of one still in use, and looking in reasonably good nick, in 1961:

 

 

[Embedded link to Flickr.] 

 

So it's probable these represented a goodly proportion of the 310 open wagons in the fleet in 1952.

 

To make these in 4 mm scale, there are various options, chief of which is Slater's kit 4027.

Edited September 9, 2023 by Compound2632

[Wickham Green too]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

... old 8-ton wagons, ... one still in use, ... in 1961: ...

Clearly the PLA didn't see any benefit in fitting a second set of brakegear in the intervening 40 years !

[Compound2632]

13 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

Clearly the PLA didn't see any benefit in fitting a second set of brakegear in the intervening 40 years !

 

As internal user wagons, they would have been exempt from that regulation - a loophole, since the risk to shunters passing between wagons can have been no different in private sidings to railway company sidings.

[Wickham Green too]

Exactly ...

 

... and if the PLA HAD wanted to be kind to their employees there were probably approaching 179 sets of brakes they could have re-purposed from wagons that hadn't survived.

[Compound2632]

55 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

Exactly ...

 

... and if the PLA HAD wanted to be kind to their employees there were probably approaching 179 sets of brakes they could have re-purposed from wagons that hadn't survived.

 

Something of the order of 80,000 sets of brake gear from Midland 8 ton 9 ft wheelbase wagons probably went for scrap...

[coline33]

Thanks you all for your replies - it is heartening.   Your comments on wagon brakes is spot-on,   My PLA Railway Department colleagues left the registration and maintenance entirely in the hands of Harland&Wolff so when in the 1970's I was calling on all dock sections to send all surviving records to me to archive, I had nothing but to make up my own list basically from photos!   I even then suspected that the Loco Register had been taken abroad by a retiree!

   

With Dapol PLA56 due for release this year to join Hornby PLA74 both spent their lives in I&M there are no RTR steamers for Royals or Tilbury Docks.   When it comes to wagons we have the sorry tale of Oxford and their 3 pack 7-plank wagons for which there was no prototype.   Oxford were told at the time through Golden Valley that they should have used their 5-plank wagon.   So there are no genuine RTR PLA opens.   Thank God that Rapido are releasing next year covered van PLA A73 (ex-GWR V16 95979).   Although this van was renumbered in the PLA second numbering series it does not matter as both series operated at the same time in the final years.   Personally I am no longer interested in repainting RTR or kit bashing, so I am looking to get further RTR PLA models as follows:-

1.   The diesel era at I&M could do with a Yorkshire engined one as preserved.

2.   The Golden Valley "Janus" is in the second PLA decoration livery received on transfer from Tilbury to Royals.   It needs an Austerity 0-6-0ST to go with it.   Which manufacturer has produced the best version to be approached?

3.   A least one correct PLA open wagon is needed.   The South Devon Railway's GWR O18 open 97398 had been PLA619 then C127 so lends itself to being measured up!

 

Any approach needs back-up and please let me know whether you would like me to start a forum purely on "PLA Railways" for interest to be registered?   

[Compound2632]

@coline33 I would be interested if you have any further information on the ex-Midland wagons - even if only numbering. Or has this been published? The one in the photo I linked to is 403, which implies the PLA had some wagons already, before the 180 it bought in 1920, while in the background is 793, also five-plank but of later build, I should think - it looks loner had has diagonal straps to the bodywork.

[coline33]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

@coline33 I would be interested if you have any further information on the ex-Midland wagons - even if only numbering. Or has this been published? The one in the photo I linked to is 403, which implies the PLA had some wagons already, before the 180 it bought in 1920, while in the background is 793, also five-plank but of later build, I should think - it looks loner had has diagonal straps to the bodywork.

Many thanks.   The photo of 793 was taken at Millwall on 1.12.1961but all I can say is it has the hallmark of a later RCH/ mainline design.  With the PLA coming into effect from the start of 1909, it was not until 1912 that the centralised Railway Department (with its Superintendent) was formed at Royals.   First need was locomotives and decades ago I wrote an article about the first order going to a German firm in 1913.   Orders were also placed with British firms for wagons/vans and certainly some of the latter arrived from Hurst Nelson in 1915!   The Great War stopped further orders and by 1919 a complete revised review was undertaken hence you see the orders for those 180 going out in the following year.

 

It seems decades since I last investigated the wagons, so what comes before me today?   Covered van A66 (now GWR V18 104700) also on the South Devon Railway with A73!   Therefore another van for some manufacturer to measure!

[coline33]

Has anyone seen photos of open wagons 139, 357, 484 and covered vans 1151, 1285. A40. A75, please?

[SteveyDee68]

On 08/09/2023 at 09:18, coline33 said:

I still have my 1982 "Model Trains" article "The Millwall Circle" to help with its background.

I shamelessly purloined this article for one of my A Level Geography projects back in 1986*! And as I didn’t have access to a photocopier (let alone a computer/scanner/printer) I had to carefully select which photographs to cut out from the magazine to include in the project! 
 

I was able to finally get myself a replacement copy of the magazine via eBay - and it was a surprise to read that the layout design suggested was a “table top” layout rather than a proper design as such.

 

Given the many dockside plans by our very own @Dzine published in various magazines, I’m looking forward to the day he designs a “whole room” dock system!

 

Steve S
 

* D’ya think it’s safe to admit that now?

Edited October 26, 2023 by SteveyDee68
Rotten spellink

[SteveyDee68]

On 10/09/2023 at 12:14, coline33 said:

When it comes to wagons we have the sorry tale of Oxford and their 3 pack 7-plank wagons for which there was no prototype. 

What?! 🫢🙄

 

I suppose that might explain why a set sat in my local model shop for so long until I got it at a reduced price! 
 

That or the fact I am in the NW of England where there is probably not so much interest in anything from the Southern Region!

 

Steve S

[coline33]

Yes, Steve, those knowledgeable about PLA railways, and they are not all down south, avoided buying the 7-plankers!   Interesting you mentioned the Southern Region as their only connection with PLA was a single hardly used siding into Surrey Commercial Docks.   When I worked there in the 1950s it was never used.   Colin.

[Compound2632]

57 minutes ago, coline33 said:

  When I worked there in the 1950s it was never used. 

 

Ah, so I now have you down as a person who may reasonably be supposed to have seen a Midland D299 still working for its living!

[wainwright1]

Hi Coline.

 

Very interesting. More photos would be useful.

 

Keep up the good work.

 

All the best

 

Ray

[coline33]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Ah, so I now have you down as a person who may reasonably be supposed to have seen a Midland D299 still working for its living!

In fact I could have joined Alan Cross as the Senior Railway Traffic Officer at I&M as within months of my joining PLA I was head hunted for his Railway Officer ClassII vacancy there!   The thought of exceptionally early mornings and using public transport from Thornton Heath to Millwall Dock put me off!!!   As it turned out it was the right decision as I had a very rounded career with them as I was very much a 'port' man and not allied to the 'dock' or 'river' divisions.   Chris Blamey MBE was a very close PLA colleague who came from BR(SR) to be the Railway Department's staff clerk, helping me after the demise of that department to find surviving records.   Dick Downey of the Tilbury Engineer's office too was at great ferret in getting the little that the Upper Docks engineers had - hence my view that Harland & Wolff and Mowlems recorded more about the railway system itself than the PLA!.   The PLA Librarian lent me the Board Minutes as the then only records left from before WW2.   These gave the quantity of wagons/van ordered new or bought secondhand but not the fleet numbers!   As a break from London's trams I will endeavour to search again to allocate the origins to the van/wagon photos I have.

 

[coline33]

On 10/09/2023 at 12:14, coline33 said:

Thanks you all for your replies - it is heartening.   Your comments on wagon brakes is spot-on,   My PLA Railway Department colleagues left the registration and maintenance entirely in the hands of Harland&Wolff so when in the 1970's I was calling on all dock sections to send all surviving records to me to archive, I had nothing but to make up my own list basically from photos!   I even then suspected that the Loco Register had been taken abroad by a retiree!

   

With Dapol PLA56 due for release this year to join Hornby PLA74 both spent their lives in I&M there are no RTR steamers for Royals or Tilbury Docks.   When it comes to wagons we have the sorry tale of Oxford and their 3 pack 7-plank wagons for which there was no prototype.   Oxford were told at the time through Golden Valley that they should have used their 5-plank wagon.   So there are no genuine RTR PLA opens.   Thank God that Rapido are releasing next year covered van PLA A73 (ex-GWR V16 95979).   Although this van was renumbered in the PLA second numbering series it does not matter as both series operated at the same time in the final years.   Personally I am no longer interested in repainting RTR or kit bashing, so I am looking to get further RTR PLA models as follows:-

1.   The diesel era at I&M could do with a Yorkshire engined one as preserved.

2.   The Golden Valley "Janus" is in the second PLA decoration livery received on transfer from Tilbury to Royals.   It needs an Austerity 0-6-0ST to go with it.   Which manufacturer has produced the best version to be approached?

3.   A least one correct PLA open wagon is needed.   The South Devon Railway's GWR O18 open 97398 had been PLA619 then C127 so lends itself to being measured up!

 

Any approach needs back-up and please let me know whether you would like me to start a forum purely on "PLA Railways" for interest to be registered?   

A bit of an update!   I had a devil of a job tracking down a stockist who still advertised the Rapido PLA van A73.   So I pre-ordered two allowing me to change the number easily to A78 although I have no record of what type of van it was!   Sorry only one left so I took it.   In checking the van list I found A66 ex-GWR V18 as W104700 on the Severn Valley.   So corresponded with Rapido who confirm that the last pre-order they had for the PLa van had just been taken!   The only difference that I know between V14/16 and V18 is that latter has the same body but the chassis comes with or without vacuum brakes.   With all A73 now out-of-stock and the similarity of van types could not a second run be included but as A66.   The response was that the V18 is in mind so could include A66 but it was felt that to add to the present plan would overdo the market at this moment.   However, Rapido is interested  should there be other wagons, etc., in mind.   So I will follow up with open wagon 619/C127 on their wish-list!

 

Regarding the I&M Yorkshire Engine diesel, I see that the Gaugemaster Collection is taking pre-orders for a 2024 release of a blue BR 02 class and a green version as an industrial, priced at £169 each.   The price is off-putting my suggesting to them of the need for a PLA blue version, what do you think I should do, please?