Peak District Pacifics

[Tom Rose]

Evening all

 

I'm looking for some prototype info in order to justify the running of some stock on my new layout currently in the planning stages.

 

Basically, I'm looking for any information on if Princess Royals/Coronations ever ran on the midland mainline route through the Peak District? I have plenty of photos of them arriving into Manchester London road and even a few of them going as far as Stockport, but nothing concrete showing them actually working through the peaks (Although I swear I saw a photo at one point of one working an express through peak forest). Express services on this route were more commonly hauled by Jubilees, Back Fives, Royal scots and in later years Britannias, but if I can find at least one photo of a princess on this route, that's all the justification I need to be able to run a model of one! 

 

As a secondary question, does anyone know if A3s worked the Woodhead route at all? once again, there's plenty of photos of them in Manchester but no information of if they operated over Woodhead at all. I do however have a photo of an A3 on a wartime freight  emerging from the Woodhead tunnel, although this is not enough to prove they worked passenger services over the route for me.

 

Any info on either or both of the questions would be massively appreciated!

[PenrithBeacon]

IIRC the LMS Pacifics  didn't run over the Peaks but the Britannias and at least one Bulleid did.

The A3 class did run over Woodhead before electrification including 60103

[pH]

Here you go - A3 on Woodhead route:

 

https://pjbrailwayphotos.piwigo.com/picture?/26986/categories

 

(I can't get the caption to display properly, but it says "60104 'Solario' restarts a Manchester to Marylebone XP from Penistone Station,1950's.")

[johnd]

As well as those mentioned have you had a  look at locos used on the route in the 1948 Loco exchanges.

 

As regards Princess Royals yes they were tried on the  Euston/Manchester service and from memory for some reason or other I think that they had to go via Crewe and were barred from the more direct Macclesfield route, feel free to correct me if i'm wrong, Hence them not being regularly seen in Manchester.  Royal Scots, Patriots, Jubilees( improved Patriots), Black Fives and in later days Britannia's were the preferred motive power for passenger services.

[LMS2968]

17 minutes ago, johnd said:

As regards Princess Royals yes they were tried on the  Euston/Manchester service and from memory for some reason or other I think that they had to go via Crewe and were barred from the more direct Macclesfield route, feel free to correct me if i'm wrong, Hence them not being regularly seen in Manchester.  Royal Scots, Patriots, Jubilees( improved Patriots), Black Fives and in later days Britannia's were the preferred motive power for passenger services.

As the man said. Stanier Pacifics were never used in ordinary service on any part of the Midland main lines at any time. One offs were a diversion via Hellifield, Settle Jct and the Little North Western, possibly only once. There was some use over the S&C north of Skipton for enthusiasts specials near the end, and 6225 ran tests over the route in 1955/56. 6203 worked LE to Derby works for the first front main frame replacement in, I think, 1951, but they are all I can think of. Nothing around the Peak District.

[Ian Hargrave]

11 hours ago, Tom Rose said:

Evening all

 

I'm looking for some prototype info in order to justify the running of some stock on my new layout currently in the planning stages.

 

Basically, I'm looking for any information on if Princess Royals/Coronations ever ran on the midland mainline route through the Peak District? I have plenty of photos of them arriving into Manchester London road and even a few of them going as far as Stockport, but nothing concrete showing them actually working through the peaks (Although I swear I saw a photo at one point of one working an express through peak forest). Express services on this route were more commonly hauled by Jubilees, Back Fives, Royal scots and in later years Britannias, but if I can find at least one photo of a princess on this route, that's all the justification I need to be able to run a model of one! 

 

As a secondary question, does anyone know if A3s worked the Woodhead route at all? once again, there's plenty of photos of them in Manchester but no information of if they operated over Woodhead at all. I do however have a photo of an A3 on a wartime freight  emerging from the Woodhead tunnel, although this is not enough to prove they worked passenger services over the route for me.

 

Any info on either or both of the questions would be massively appreciated!

Passenger working over the Peaks were the province of the Midland Division of the LMR .Trains worked via Derby,Chinley and into Manchester Central ( today’s G Mex) and not London Road. Midland sheds involved were Trafford Park,Derby and Kentish Town. The Britannias were introduced in 1958 on the route and were the only Pacifics  that worked out of St.Pancras to Manchester Central  via Derby and Leeds (via Sheffield). Locomotives were usually a variety of both Black and Standard 5MT,Jubilees,Patriots of both original and rebuilt kinds and Royal Scots from 1958

 No Stanier Pacifics  were  allocated to the Midland Division. All worked on the Western Division The 7Ppower classification was introduced only in the late 50’s to improve loading and timings and reduce double heading which was common at the time . I have no recollection of reports of Stanier Pacifics working the route. Sorry. Rule 1 will have to apply here.I am ancient enough to have been actively a spotter at the time and an avid Trains Illustrated Motive Power Miscellany reader each month.

 

 

Edited November 20, 2021 by Ian Hargrave
Accuracy

[dave75]

Almost any of the Woodhead books will give you  evidence of A3s on Manchester - Marylebone services via Woodhead. There was also A4s working over the line in WW2, I was unaware of this until I picked up on ebay an excellent book by Kenneth Oldham

[woodenhead]

A3s would also work overnight parcels trains into Manchester Central via Woodhead.

[lather]

The first Pacific to run over the line through the Peaks was during the post-war locomotive exchanges.

 

Apparently, the Britannias didn't last long on the route through the Peaks, supposedly because the twisting nature of the line resulted in the smokeboxes shifting in their saddles. There was also the issue of one of them deciding to jettison its tender and the rest of the train at speed - although IIRC that was actually near Chinley. After that, they would mainly have worked the Derby to Leeds route.

 

Main classes on the line would have been 4P compounds, 0-6-0 3Fs and 4Fs, 0-8-0 7Fs, 2-8-0 8Fs, Black 5s, Crabs and Jubilees. A small number of Patriots and Royal Scots were allocated to the line in the 1950s to supplement the Jubilees - possibly as a result of the issues with the Britannias.

 

One little quirk of the line was that some swapping of tenders took place between the Jubilees and 8Fs. Another thing to keep in mind is that, north of Rowsley, even an 8F was limited to the load permitted for a 4F. This was due to the question of the brake in the brake van holding the train on the gradient if a coupling broke - even though most trains would have had a 20-ton van on the back. That was the main reason for the existence of Rowsley yard, so they could split the larger trains into more manageable portions, and then reassemble larger trains at Gowhole for onward haulage to Manchester.

 

When the accelerated timetable was introduced (in 1962?), passenger trains listed as "AT" in the WTT would have mainly been hauled by a Jubilee or Black 5 with a 4P compound as a pilot.

 

Beyer-Garratts did run on the southern part of the route through Ambergate, but were banned north of Rowsley. They did once try taking one over the route from Rowsley to Gowhole, pulling round 100 wagons, but it wasn't a success. From what I've read about the attempt, when they inspected the loco on arrival at Gowhole, they found that the effort of braking the unfitted train on the descent from Peak Forest had partially melted the brake blocks! There's certainly pictures of them around Whatstandwell, both light engine and hauling a train, so they definitely took trains to and from Rowsley, but wouldn't have been seen north of there.

 

As for diesels, the main types were Derby Type 2s (TOPS Class 24 and 25), the various Derby Type 4 "Peaks" and, for a short time, the Metro-Vick Co-Bos. The Ivatt "Twins" only really worked the line while on test, but the Fell was a regular on the line. In the early days of dieselisation, there was a shortage of Peaks, so a small number of EE Type 4s (Class 40s) were borrowed from the WCML to help out. I also read something about BRCW Type 2s occasionally working over the line, including a regular late-night turn up to Gowhole yard.

 

Other diesels could sometimes be seen on the line, as apparently Beyer-Peacock used it to test-run every single Hymek prior to delivery. Brush also ran their prototype Type 2 (Class 30/31) up to Chinley while still in undercoat. Also, working timetables from the mid-60s show a regular light engine movement from Newton-le-Willows, via Miller's Dale and Derby Works, to Hither Green, which were the delivery runs for newly-built Class 73/1 electro-diesels. Somewhere online, there's even a picture of one passing through my local station at Belper.

[Poor Old Bruce]

In the late 1950s and early 1960s (probably before then but that was when I saw them) freights north of Rowsley were  regularly piloted and banked from Rowsley to Peak Forest. I remember seeing 8Fs with a 4F fore and aft and even on one occasion a train with three 4Fs, two pulling and one pushing.

 

The Southern Pacific mentioned above by @lather was Barnstaple, in SR livery but with its BR number and attached to a Stanier 4000 gallon tender.

 

The Hymek diesels had their acceptance tests from Manchester to Derby and back. Some were finish painted but many were in pink primer.

[LMS2968]

The ICI Tunstead - Northwich hoppers usually ran to fifteen wagons, 23 tons tare and 66 tons loaded, 990 tons plus the brake. They ran under Class D headcode: not less than one third fitted. They had nothing to do with Pacifics, of course, and had various forms of motive power including the 8Fs until displaced by diesels. They were generally single headed in 8F days, but banked up the severest gradients.