BR Standards working in Devon and Cornwall

[TravisM]

I was looking through a few online picture sites over the last few days and one thing I noticed was there didn’t seem to be any BR standards west of Exeter.  I only saw one and that was a 9F, heading north from Newton Abbot.

 

Because the Western Region was fairly quick with their introduction of diesel’s and elimination of steam, we’re the standards simply not needed there?

[Hal Nail]

32 minutes ago, jools1959 said:

we’re the standards simply not needed there?

Laira had some Britannias and 4MT 4-6-0s in the 50s. Various photos in the Bradford Barton books although i don't have them handy so cant recall if its the Cornwall or Devon ones.

 

http://shedbashuk.blogspot.com/2017/06/plymouth-laira-1943-1963.html

[Rivercider]

Not WR, but Exmouth Junction standard tanks worked to Bude and elsewhere on former SR lines

 

cheers

[7802]

Newton Abbot had a Britannia and a number of 3MT tanks from new but they proved unpopular with crews and were soon moved on.

[Sabato]

14 minutes ago, Rivercider said:

Not WR, but Exmouth Junction standard tanks worked to Bude and elsewhere on former SR lines

 

cheers

Class 3s did that a lot. And EJ also had Standard 5 4-6-0s that worked to Plymouth, and class 4 4-6-0s, at least one of which got to Bude. And at the end of steam working Cl 4 2-6-4Ts seemed to work almost all the remaining services on the Withered Arm.

 

Had the building programme not been curtailed (probably rightly so) there might have been Clans working over the SW lines west of Exeter.

[Rivercider]

9 minutes ago, 7802 said:

Newton Abbot had a Britannia and a number of 3MT tanks from new but they proved unpopular with crews and were soon moved on.

I was just looking through Rail Trails South West by Peter Gray.

He mentions 70022 as a Newton Abbot loco (that was treated with suspicion), with a photo of at 70016 near Hackney Yard in 1956.

Also a photo of 82001 at Heathfield, and mention of 82002/5 and 82034 as being Newton Abbot locos for a short time,

 

cheers

[Miss Prism]

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/h/halwill/halwill((david_mitchell7.1963)junction_old39.jpg

http://budeandbeyond.co.uk/local-history/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2014/06/Railway-1955-2.32-train-to-Okehampton.jpg

http://budeandbeyond.co.uk/local-history/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2014/05/Railway-1955-No.-82011-shunting-on-wharf-spur.jpg

 

[jazzer]

I am positive I have more than once seen a Britannia at St. Erth with the Cornish Riviera when they were quite new but wide firebox Pacific’s were like something from Mars for many Western Region fireman so they never really got the best from them until eventually their allocation was centred at Cardiff Canton in sufficient numbers for the crews to get used to them and they then seemed to get good work on the Paddington expresses such as the Red Dragon . 

 

A Standard class 5 73027 was photographed at Newton Abbott in 1960 on the Saturday Only 8.50 am Swansea - Paignton relief.and 73023 followed on the 9.05am Swansea- Kingswear.

 

9Fs we’re pushed into Summer Saturday service on the Swansea/Cardiff - Paignton/Kingswear trains and also on the Newquay- Cardiff route.

 

 

[jazzer]

I should have said in my last post I remember seeing photos of Britannia’s at St Erth , not in the flesh !

[Hal Nail]

http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/latest-input--news--old-pictures-etc/items-added-on-7th-august-2017-those-added-most-recently-come-first

 

Lightning at Long Rock if you scroll down a bit.

[TravisM]

It seems apart from the 9F’s at South Wales depot’s, which I believe were quite well regarded, BR Standards were not particularly liked by Western Region crews

[The Johnster]

The Britannias certainly weren't, the general view being that Castles were better, and the WR wanted to build more of them in 1950.  The WR batch of Brits were named for Broad Gauge locos, partly at least in order to gain acceptance from the crews, and the first of the batch delivered to the region, 70014 Iron Duke at Old Oak, was got rid of on loan to the Southern Region before turning a wheel in anger on the Western because of problems with the Merchant Navies at the time, and Old Oak were careful never to ask for it back; it became understudy to 70004 William Shakespeare on the 'Golden Arrow' at Stewart's Lane.

 

The South Wales expresses were generously timed but heavily loaded, 14 bogies being expected to be hauled without assistance and up to 16 with.  The hard work was from Severn Tunnel Bottom to Badminton, and a 2-cylinder pacific with 6'2" drivers, a free steaming boiler, and a wide firebox is not a bad tool for such a job.  After (I think) 1955, when the Loco Department manager of Newport Division said at a meeting that he would be happy to take all of Old Oak, Bath Road, and Laira's allocation of unwanted Brits, they were all allox 86C Canton, where they did well enough.  High mileage engines whose tyres had worn down so that the driving wheel diameters were more like 6 feet were useful on the 'down line' work to Swansea and points west, where speeds were lower and there were plenty of banks to climb.  They were replaced at Canton in 1960 by the class the shed had been asking for since 1927, the Kings, which were the absolute masters of the job.  The idea of replacing Kings on these trains with Hymeks in 1962 was a bit daft, but the region was so short of motive power that there was little alternative.

 

Evening Star was allocated new to Canton in 1960 when it was built, and used on 3 occasions on the 'Red Dragon' to Paddington in it's first week of service, having no trouble keeping time, after which officialdom at Paddinton noticed that the shiny Brit on the Red Dragon had different wheels to the usual, and called a halt.  Some South Wales 9Fs, including Evening Star, spent summer seasons on the Somerset and Dorset, where they proved capable of anything and everything that was thrown at them, though Evening Star always came back filthy, to be immedieately polished to the nines like a Canton engine should be...  9Fs used on summer relief work, especially August Bank Holiday workings, were in company with all sorts of engines not usually associated with main line passenger work, including 28xx, 42xx, even 56xx; anything that could blow off vacuum brakes and could turn a wheel was sent off in the direction of Devon and Cornwall in the late 50s and into the 60s.

 

The 82xxx used in South Wales were replacements for pregrouping passenger 0-6-2T locos like Taff As or Rhymney Ps, and the sheds would have been happier if the 41xx series large prairies had been provided instead, which had been the case until the introduction of the 82xxx.  The go-to loco was the 56xx, but some duties were a bit near the limit for mileage and larger driving wheels were valuable on the longer runs.  By and large, the crews couldn't see the point of an engine the same size as and requiring similar firing to a 5101 (the fireboxes were identical), but with considerably less power and tractive effort.  The were allocated to Cathays, Barry, Merthyr, Treherbert, and Rhymney.  The matter was settled by the arrival of class 116 dmus in 1958, and the 82xxx were all transferred away, though many of the 41xx series remained in the area, some lasting unti the end of steam in 1965.

[TomJ]

14 hours ago, jazzer said:

I am positive I have more than once seen a Britannia at St. Erth with the Cornish Riviera when they were quite new but wide firebox Pacific’s were like something from Mars for many Western Region fireman so they never really got the best from them until eventually their allocation was centred at Cardiff Canton in sufficient numbers for the crews to get used to them and they then seemed to get good work on the Paddington expresses such as the Red Dragon . 

 

A Standard class 5 73027 was photographed at Newton Abbott in 1960 on the Saturday Only 8.50 am Swansea - Paignton relief.and 73023 followed on the 9.05am Swansea- Kingswear.

 

9Fs we’re pushed into Summer Saturday service on the Swansea/Cardiff - Paignton/Kingswear trains and also on the Newquay- Cardiff route.

 

 

So did 9Fs cross the Tamar? And did they make it to Newquay or was there an engine change anywhere. Not seen any photos of 9Fs in Cornwall but will love an excuse to run one on my Newquay inspired layout!

[The Stationmaster]

6 hours ago, TomJ said:

So did 9Fs cross the Tamar? And did they make it to Newquay or was there an engine change anywhere. Not seen any photos of 9Fs in Cornwall but will love an excuse to run one on my Newquay inspired layout!

9Fs were not permitted to cross the Royal Albert Bridge.

 

the Class 4 4-6-0s sem to have been reasonably popular at Western sheds although they were ultimately largely concentrated onto the Cambrian lines.  the real problem children were the 'Britannias' which were found to have various faults some imagined and some real.  they were genuinely criticised, not  just on the Western, for having draughty cabs which could get dirty with coal dust blown around by the the draught.  

 

But the real misgivings of Western men centred around them being left hand drive and having a large boiler which effectively led to those Drivers set in their ways having to re-learn the road from the 'new' side of the footplate.   Added to that they were also provided with a trailing carrying wheelset which made them less than surefooted when staring away with a proneness to slipping that was unknown on the large Western 4-6-0s although I'm fairly sure that the regulator problems which contributed to that had been sorted before they arrived on the Western - but they could still be seen throughout their time on the Region involved in some truly spectacular slipping on trying to start a heavy train.

 

 Just to add insiult to injury because they were left hand drive that also meant that ideally they should be fired left handed whereas Western firemen were used to firing right handed and many found it difficult to adapt to the change and that led to another problem because if firing right handed they were not only working around the Driver but their overalls had a nasty habit of catching on the Blower handle.  There was probably also a lack of familiarity with handling a wide firebox and i know that some Western Firemen could never manage to get on with them

 

The whole thing got very thoroughly blown out of proportion by a certain Laira Driver who not only poured scorn on 'these appalling engines' but went to the extent of not just complaining to his Shedmaster and various Inspectors but extended his attack by writing some very vitriolic letters to the national press - which picked on them with glee.  This reportedly led to major questions being asked of the Region and finally at a regular DMPS conference the District Motive Power Supt from Newport offered as an answer to the problem to take the whole WR allocation of the class off everybody else's hands and put them at Cardiff Canton - something his colleagues accepted with alacrity as a means of getting rid of their problems.

 

Canton Enginemen might, or might not, have appreciated the 'Britannias to any greater or lesser extent than any other WR shed (there was apparently some evidence of adverse murmurings in some quarters there and there was clear evidence that some of them never overcame the engines' propensity to slip when trying to start away) but they were left in no doubt by the DMPS that they had no choice but to get on with the class and keep any misgivings to themselves.  'Britannias' incidentally were allowed the same loads on passenger trains as 'Castles' and 'Counties' and that was basically, on the heavily graded sections, one coach more than a 'Hall' or Grange'

 

The 9Fs also had to face the fact that they too came with a large boiler and left hand drive but they had the advantage as freight engines of finding themselves in the hands of younger Drivers who were probably far more adaptable than men in the top passenger links.  And of course they suffered the early blot on thoer copy book of their stroiong inclination to runaway down hill which quickly came to light as the early members of the class were sent to the WR and put to work on the western Valley iron ore trains to Ebbw Vale.  Tales of f hair raising runaways coming back down the valley very quickly reached Paddington and investigations were put in hand but while they were carried out most of the Ebbw Jcn allocation was pi ut into store pending the outcome.  Once the jammming regulator problem (which had caused the runaways) had been resolved the engines ettled down to useful work on the Western and their sheer power did much to allay any complaints.  but in any event the worst part of dealing with them fell upon the Fireman because they definitely needed to be fired t the back corners and that eant that one of the hands on the shovel was almost in the firebox doorway to twist the shovel round. (There was a well known trick to ease that task by placing bits of broken firebrick in the back corners to make the fire there thinner and not need so much firing - and that didn't just happen on the Western.)

[TomJ]

Thanks for that. Really interesting. Pity about the 9Fs not crossing the Tamar. I have a soft spot for them. Perhaps they made it to Kingswear on holiday trains? I mean they definitely made it to Newton Abbot, and Kings were permitted to Kingswear……

[pH]

22 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/latest-input--news--old-pictures-etc/items-added-on-7th-august-2017-those-added-most-recently-come-first

 

Lightning at Long Rock if you scroll down a bit.

Another one of the same engine on the turntable at Long Rock on 26/04/1952 in ‘Steam Days’ for April 2002. It’s carrying the headboard for the ‘Cornish Riviera’, having worked the down train. 

[pH]

1 hour ago, TomJ said:

Thanks for that. Really interesting. Pity about the 9Fs not crossing the Tamar. I have a soft spot for them. Perhaps they made it to Kingswear on holiday trains? I mean they definitely made it to Newton Abbot, and Kings were permitted to Kingswear……

Yes, 9Fs made it to Kingswear:

 

https://thetransportlibrary.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=130842

[Rivercider]

6 minutes ago, pH said:

Yes, 9Fs made it to Kingswear:

 

https://thetransportlibrary.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=130842

More Great Western Steam in Devon (Bradford Barton) also has a photo of 92233 at Aller Junction on a Kingswear relief in September 1959,

 

cheers

[pH]

About 9Fs possibly in Cornwall (and despite the prohibition and lack of any positive evidence), there is an article in ‘Steam Days’ for September 2007 titled “BR Standard ‘9F’ 2-10-0s on Passenger Trains”. It lists several 9Fs on trains to and from stations in Cornwall. It does not say if there was an engine change at some point. Presumably there was, at Newton Abbot or Plymouth, or the fact that the 9F worked through would almost certainly be mentioned.

[pH]

1 hour ago, Rivercider said:

More Great Western Steam in Devon (Bradford Barton) also has a photo of 92233 at Aller Junction on a Kingswear relief in September 1959,

 

cheers

Probably the same one in “Locomotives Illustrated #5 - 9F 2-10-0s”:

- reporting number 328

- Swansea-Kingswear train

- photographer Derek Cross

 

[MidlandRed]

The extensive posts from The Johnster and Stationmaster certainly give extensive information on this subject. 
 

Of course, all of the standards were left hand drive (in common with locos nationwide other than the ex GWR ones) so it is hardly surprising the WR crews were less than happy with them, and it is also hardly surprising that this major alteration to accepted working practices on the WR might be viewed with scorn. There also appeared to be a reluctance of the WR to be ‘absorbed’ into a truly national railway - there being many other instances of regional peculiarities of practices being held on to, and seemingly on the WR more than others, many of which seem to have had dubious impact on cost. For instance, did the GWR, and then WR have its own pattern of fireman’s shovel, designed to optimise firing from the left side and for the types of locos descended from the Edwardian era? I’m sure I’ve read they did. If so, did they think of changing to standard pattern shovels to deal with the standards?

 

Standard type locos (and 4-6-2s in particular) worked fine elsewhere in the country so I wonder whether the slipping was down to driver error (or more like driving in a manner suitable for a different loco?). The advantages (and disadvantages of 4-6-2 over 4-6-0) are well known. Presumably the ease of maintenance of the standards, for which they were designed, over older designs should have endeared them to shed maintenance staff on the WR. 

 

However it’s all of these idiosyncrasies which contribute to the WR being a highly interesting and particularly evocative and nostalgia inducing region for enthusiasts, modellers and the more general public. 
 

My take from having read lots of tomes on the modernisation plan and that era generally, and which have called on primary sources of research, from the point of view of an organisation trying to operate railways in the most efficient way, the WR appears at times to have been a massive obstacle and thorn in the side - some of its more odd ideas and requests apparently being met with apoplexy and incredulity by senior staff from Sir Brian Robertson downwards - an example - how on earth anyone could put together a proposal which included suggesting a need for 900 type 1 diesels across the WR seems staggering - the total BR complement ended up at just over 500 - even if you take account the nationwide type 2 complement as well, those add a further 700 - so the WR was suggesting a level of type 1 which was about 67% of the entire national fleet of types 1 and 2 combined. Although it’s true that traffic demands changed, one would have to question the fundamental processes and data that led to this level of error (unless it was a typo and should have been 90….). As we know the WR ended up ultimately with 56 type 1 (which were redundant very quickly) and 58 type 2s. 

Edited December 18, 2021 by MidlandRed

[Andy Kirkham]

BR Database shows seven 9Fs alocated to Laira in the summer of 1959, and some of them returned the following summer. Most of them were on loan from Banbury.

 

But otherwise, and apart from in the early years mentioned above, standards seem to have been more or less confined to the parts of the region north of Bristol. I wonder if they were more favoured in areas where crews might have been familiar with LMS engines.

Edited December 19, 2021 by Andy Kirkham

[The Johnster]

6 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Added to that they were also provided with a trailing carrying wheelset which made them less than surefooted when staring away with a proneness to slipping that was unknown on the large Western 4-6-0s although I'm fairly sure that the regulator problems which contributed to that had been sorted before they arrived on the Western - but they could still be seen throughout their time on the Region involved in some truly spectacular slipping on trying to start a heavy train.

 

That is certainly bourne out by my own memories of them making a massive fuss of getting away from platform 2 at Cardiff General, taking several minutes to clear the platform and not really out of the woods so far as slipping was concerned until at least half of the train was over the summit of the Canal Wharf bridge and on the downhill gradient towards Newtown.  They were heavy trains of 14, 15, or 16 bogies but Castles, Counties, and for that matter Halls just pulled away with them, admittedly slowly but usually quite sure footedly. 

 

I watched, impressed, as Britannia started 11 bogies out of P2 in 2019, without any fuss or bother but certainly with a degree of stately gravitas, but the Canton men doing this on a daily basis in the 50s had up to 5 more behind the tender, and I would have thought most pacifics would have found that a challenge!  I was keen to see how Tornado would cope a few months later, 12 bogies and 117tons of dead 47 on a wet rail, so not far off a full Britannia load assisted from Severn Tunnel, but the train departed from P3 and I was denied my direct comparsison.  The 8P loco took the train out with contemptuous ease, almost effortlessly.

 

6 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

 

Canton Enginemen might, or might not, have appreciated the 'Britannias to any greater or lesser extent than any other WR shed (there was apparently some evidence of adverse murmurings in some quarters there and there was clear evidence that some of them never overcame the engines' propensity to slip when trying to start away) but they were left in no doubt by the DMPS that they had no choice but to get on with the class and keep any misgivings to themselve

 

The general view amongst locomen I spoke to in the 70s about them was that they were 'good strong engines' and would steam on a candle provided it was exactly in the right position in the firebox; some had been firemen at the time and the Brits were hard physical work (not helped by the men having to learn right-handed firing techniques).  A Cardiff-Paddington run with a Brit meant that the fireman had to shovel an extra ton of coal over the same run with a Castle, and there were stories of the tenders being empty as far out as Maidenhead.  Canton men seemed to me to have genuinely liked the Brits and appreciated their qualities, but liked Castles more!  

 

All the BR standards (and the WD 2-8-0s) seem to have been thought of at Canton as 'Midland' engines, and there can be few worse insults from GW men, and the men naturally preferred the home grown products.  The comment about the 75xxx 4MT is interesting, as it was one of the classes assembled at Swindon and used a domed version of the no.14 Manor boiler, so must have been similar to fire (though right handed of course).  Same did not seem to hold for the 82xxx, effectively a 5101 with a no.2 domed boiler and built out of BR standard parts, which made it a little slower, less powerful, and have less tractive effort.  It did have a much bigger cab than the 5101s, though, which made working with the shovel a bit easier.

 

1 hour ago, MidlandRed said:

For instance, did the GWR, and then WR have its own pattern of fireman’s shovel, designed to optimise firing from the left side and for the types of locos descended from the Edwardian era? I

 

Yes they did; the standard firing shovel used on other railways nominally held 5lb of coal whereas the GW/WR one held 7lb, and was longer.  This was considered an advantage in propelling coal to the forward corners of the fireboxes of locos with no.1 boilers or bigger, and I believe that was the reason for the difference rather than optimising it for left-sided firing, but most of the firemen I spoke (as I've said, they were drivers by the 70s) were a bit scared of the longer firebox of the Kings, which were at Canton for 2 years 1960-62.

 

The WR did not have any locomotives descended from the Victorian era by the mid 50s. the last Dean Goods going in 1956, and very few for the decade before that, and the oldest locos were Churchwards.   All the other regions had 19th century locomotives still in service in 1960, and some later than that, so in that sense the WR had the most modern loco fleet overall, but of course this does not reflect the extent to which Swindon had rested on it's laurels and lost the cutting edge boasting rights (not that it ever stopped them carrying as if they still had them) in the post-Churchward era.  The BR standards suffered from the view  prevalent on the WR that Swindon knew best, because arguably it did for a few years between about 40 and 50 years before the period we are talking about, and had devised the 28xx by 1906, the Castle by 1922, and the Hall by 1926, and what more could you reasonably want; these engines were as good as any of their types anywhere; arguably true, but I would not like to have argued the point with some poor sod oiling round between the frames of a Castle by the 'light' of a sooty flare lamp on a freezing winter night, or disposing of same on a hot summer afternoon...

 

 

Edited December 19, 2021 by The Johnster

[mdvle]

1 hour ago, Andy Kirkham said:

But otherwise, and apart from in the early years mentioned above, standards seem to have been more or less confined to the parts of the region north of Bristol. I wonder if they were more favoured in areas where crews might have been familiar with LMS engines.

 

Or perhaps, with or without realizing what they were doing, they concentrated them into specific depots instead of spreading them over the entire region - thus minimizing the issue of driving/firing them going against years if not decades of muscle memory by minimizing the number of places where the men would be working both types.

[DCB]

The (G)WR got the second batch of Britannias from Crewe.  They were alien to crews used to the standardised layout of GWR footplates and their need for careful handling on starting, especially  on the Cornish main line it hardly surprising crews complained when they struggled to match the performance of a Hall with a loco larger than a King. It seems they had a brief fling on the CRE to Penzance when new, and were sent to the flatter lines of Wales where they could cruise along at the sort of speed a 9F could easily equal.  The books about Summer Saturdays in the West in the late 1950s show a few ( Cardiff Canton)Britannias getting to Newton Abbott / Paignton but I don't think they got further than Plymouth. On Summer Satiurdays "Express" Passenger trains were nose to tail from Taunton to Newton Abbott.  Generally Locomotive workings were from Paddington and Bristol, I understand 70024 got to NA on a Kingswear train, and then piloted a Penzance train to Plymouth  in 1957 the last year of almost complete steam operation in the West

 

The (G) WR got the first 9Fs off the Crewe production line. circa 1954.  Crewe! That temple of mediocrity pairs of whose locomotives could be hauled backwards by just one of Churchwards finest (Probably two Precedents towed by a 42XX)   The GWR planned a 2-10-0 with 4ft 71/2" wheels, smokebox regulators to minimise the amount of steam downstream of the regulator, King Boiler and GWR Stephensons valve gear for the Ebbw Vale  iron ore trains pre war, Instead they got a slippery footed 80mph capable Mixed traffic loco.   Locoman's reminiscences often mention they never knew a 42XX to slip and that's the locos the 9Fs effectively replaced.  The 9Fs had to have much smaller Standard 4 regulators fitted to limit the slipping, which made no difference to their speedworthiness and was applied to all the 9Fs and the small non standard class of 7 (?)  WR allocated 9Fs with a small cohort of crews settled down to a lonely existence at Ebbw Junction.  The pop type safety valves( a ridiculous gimmick more suited to a stationary boiler)  failing to re seat until 10 lbs of more steam had been wasted was a frustration to GWR firemen used to running with valves just lifting

Next despite (G)WR resistance and after the arrival of the first Diesels 40 odd more 9Fs this time from Swindon  and Crewe were delivered from 1958 to 1960.  These largely replaced 43XX class on the summer extras as they 43XX were no longer considered up to the tasks they had comfortably performed pre war.  As the diesels took over crews warmed to the 9Fs. My Father in Laws neighbour, a former Swindon Fireman says 9Fs  were the best steam engines ever. 

I don't think there was much wrong with 3MT tanks except BR thought them equal to 41XX and when they couldn't start similar trains,  1903 Std 3 boiler Pop valves wasting steam, walschaerts valve gear, and they couldn't handle the heavy summer passenger services from Paignton to NA and were inferior as bankers on the South Devon Banks.

 

Edited December 19, 2021 by DCB