Getting back into the hobby... DCC Questions

[bigben5051]

Hello all, 

I am getting back into this hobby after a hiatus of around 20 years when I had a layout in my bedroom as a child and young teenager. Back then I had a very simple DC setup, a couple of controllers for a couple of loops... you know the story. 
 

I have started to construct a medium-sized depot layout. This also includes two main lines, which whilst mostly useless on the layout at present, will give me an excuse to expand at a later date. I decided early on that I wanted to use DCC, as it seems to give a lot more flexibility and just seems to be the way the hobby has gone in recent years. All I can say is wow! Things really have moved on!
 

After doing a bit of research, on YouTube and elsewhere, I have gained a rough understanding of the best way in which to wire up the track, electro-frogs and point motors (almost!), although I still have a lot of questions regarding the power source, controllers, point and signal control and probably more! Please understand that I am very new to DCC and am mostly useless when it comes to electrics, although I can solder etc. I will probably be using DCC Concepts components where possible.
 

I do hope that this is the correct place to post such questions, please correct me if not and I can move it to the appropriate section!
 

1. Do I connect the point motors to the same bus as the track? If not, what's the best way to do this?

2. How do I power the layout? Is it simply a case of buying a controller?

3. I understand that I can control points from a handheld controller the same way I would control locos. If I was to start out with this setup is it easy to upgrade to a system that has a mimic panel, individual levers etc, or is it best to start with the system I ultimately want?
4.  When I come to extend the layout, can I have multiple mimic and control panels for different areas?
 

I apologise for the rather novice questions, and many thanks for taking the time to read.

Best wishes,
Ben

[ITG]

Sounds somewhat like my own journey, although my gap was 50 years!

I started with a Gaugemaster Prodigy Advance2, which comprises (like most other brands) with a power supply, a base unit and a hand held controller/throttle. To start, that’s all you need, being able to control locos and accessories. Not long after I added DCC Concepts Alpha Switch D components to provide a layout panel with LED push button switches to control points. (It also has push-buttons for servo uncouplers, although these are powered by a separate 12v DC supply. ) Many brands of DCC controllers will allow easy add-ones later.

 

Opinion seems split on having separate track and accessory buses, but I did split mine. 
 

If you like DCC Concepts products, their support is excellent and you could do worse than ask their views directly. (No connection other than etc)

[Derekl]

I am also starting a layout with DCC. I found the use of the controller (I use NCE) to change points unsatisfactory and am busy installing DCC Concepts panel as ITG above. Not particularly difficult although some parts are fiddly. There is superb guidance in manuals which makes the task fairly straightforward.

There is a wide range of information  on their web-site (under Manuals/Advice) and you would be well advised to look for answers there. Their support service is excellent if you have any specific queries or problems.

Their producsts also seem to be well-made and well-designed. I have only been using them for about a year but I haven't noticed any potential probkems.

No connection other than satsified customer.

[Butler Henderson]

The big advantage of working everything from the handset (I use Multimaus) IMO is the lack of  a need for a mimic/control panel and the resultant ease of making changes to the layout without having to replace or alter the panel. A laminated A4 sheet being sufficient to remind an operator if neccessary. On an end to end layout I simply number the points from one end as they lie from the baseboard edge and use 7x numbers for signals (assumming obviously their is no more than 9) on the same basis, then if a point is forgotten its a simple a matter of counting down the layout or a numbered sticky label stick to the fascia in line as neccessary.

[ITG]

The main reason I added the layout control panel was that I didn’t like the need to go in and out of the loco and accessory functions on the handheld unit. So I’ve now separated the two functions completely; locos are controlled by the handheld unit, points by the panel.

[Nigelcliffe]

A small observation - levers are incompatible with control from a handset (or second panel).   Doesn't matter which control system is adopted, the problem is that a lever won't move if another device changes the turnout.   

Push buttons and lights (LEDs) don't suffer that problem.   

 

So, if "levers" are a must-have, then design for the levers (and forget control from other devices, which in turn might mean forget the expense of DCC decoders to move turnouts and signals).     If levers were just a thought, then the expense of decoders for turnouts and signals may be worthwhile to provide multiple places to control them, or offer more complex levels of control.  

 

 

Prices are now such that its cheaper to build a "glass" panel than a physical one.  A cheap tablet computer provides the touch screen interface (a 10 inch display Android devices are £100 in several high street shops in run-up to Christmas).     A "physical buttons and LEDs" panel is an expensive luxury compared to the software option.       

Some DCC systems provide direct support for tablet interfaces (eg. Roco).  Others can have it added very cheaply.   

 

 

 

- Nigel

 

[grriff]

If you are coming back to the hobby, it's worth looking at the Model Railway Electronics Book, free from the MERG site https://merg.org.uk/

(accessed from the home page - you don't need to be a member) 

[maq1988]

1. Do I connect the point motors to the same bus as the track? If not, what's the best way to do this?

 

- Depends on the point motor, some will have a built in decoder that you can connect to a bus, some will require a controller board that itself is connected to the bus and the point motor. I use a separate 'bus' for my points (DCC Concepts SX-8 and PECO solenoid motors) that goes back to my controller. That way if I have a problem I can disconnect all the points from the trackwork for troubleshooting

 

2. How do I power the layout? Is it simply a case of buying a controller?

 

- Yes, it can be that easy. I use a Gaugemaster Prodigy 2. I'm happy with that. Some people go as far as hooking up their layouts to computers to do complete automation. Make sure you have good electrical connections, I try to do wires to every length of rail

 

3. I understand that I can control points from a handheld controller the same way I would control locos. If I was to start out with this setup is it easy to upgrade to a system that has a mimic panel, individual levers etc, or is it best to start with the system I ultimately want?

 

- Changing DCC systems can be expensive, so plan for what you'd like. I find changing points on the controller really annoying so I have a simple toggle switch mimic panel for point control, although these run through my DCC Concepts SX-8 for some future automation

4.  When I come to extend the layout, can I have multiple mimic and control panels for different areas?

 

- Yes. You can spilt the layout into 'zones', if you are using traditional mimic panels this might be a little easier, but more wiring for all the switches/LEDs. If you go digital mimic panels it does require a bit more knowledge on the computer side

 

 

Good luck!

 

[SamThomas]

Separate bus for the accessories is IMHO a must, more so on a large layout.

 

Your supplier of choice is a bit "marmite" - personally the only products from that stable that I have had succes with are the axel pick up springs & the B 2 B gauge.

 

I would have s serious look at the Roco Z21 - excellent for mimic distplay & operation.

The drawback is that it's quite expensive to start with by the time you have bought the Z21 & a tablet** to run it on (unless you already have one around) but overall, it could be cheaper by the time you have built up to the same level separatly.

 

Also, I would invest in a couple of coils of single flexible cable for the bus & another one for the droppers.

 

** you can use a smartphone but it will hammer the battery.

Edited December 25, 2021 by SamThomas

[Izzy]

I would second having a separate accessory bus/power supply for points if not manually worked I.e. where the power and/or control uses the DCC command station output. Some system where if/when a track short happens - wrongly set points etc. - then the track power can be turned off while it’s put right, the points set correctly and so forth. There are several ways this can be implemented depending on how it’s all set up. For me this is just an DPDT on/off switch to the track bus as I came into this problem backwards. ‘Upgraded’ the layout to use hacked servos powered off the DCC (via panel switches), and then got stuck when a short happened……

[AndrueC]

On 24/12/2021 at 17:29, bigben5051 said:

1. Do I connect the point motors to the same bus as the track? If not, what's the best way to do this?

You certainly can do. I did. Although what I've actually done is run a dedicated spur off the start of the main bus and daisy-chained my motor and light controllers together rather than using 'droppers' for them. It works fine but I have 8 locos on the track and with them idle my controller (NCE PowerCab) jumped from .2A to .4A. That's still well within the controller's ability but I've got 12 more LEDs to add and one more motor controller so have bought a booster that will allow me to isolate accessories from track.

 

It will also mean that if run a loco against a turnout I can still operate the turnout even if the track bus fuse trips.

On 24/12/2021 at 17:29, bigben5051 said:

2. How do I power the layout? Is it simply a case of buying a controller?

Depends. I bought the NCE PowerCab which is very popular. You have a hand controller that plugs into a PCB. The PCB has a power jack and two outputs. You connect your track bus to these outputs and that's it. Don't be tempted to just connect the track and rely on fishplates for conductivity. If it all possible solders droppers to every individual piece of track. Speaking from experience as a relative newbie (only started myself a year ago) I can attest that fishplates are not reliable conductors.

On 24/12/2021 at 17:29, bigben5051 said:

3. I understand that I can control points from a handheld controller the same way I would control locos. If I was to start out with this setup is it easy to upgrade to a system that has a mimic panel, individual levers etc, or is it best to start with the system I ultimately want?

Yes. The motors (actually their controllers) are just responding to DCC commands the same as the locos are although they use separate range of addresses. Mimic panels are actually doing the same. It's a bit of a shame they are called 'mimic' panels because it seems like a cheating term to use. They are basically just devices that monitor the DCC signals and respond to commands like anything else.

 

One use of them is to respond to the same commands as are being sent to something else (thus they 'mimic') but to me that's a specialised usage. I'm using an Alpha Mimic and it's purely to operate my LEDs. The reason for that is the LEDs are guarding the entrance to sidings and driving each one off the corresponding turnout motor would still require me to 'decode' the light pattern to determine valid routing. Instead I have four sidings with four LEDs and whichever LED is green is the valid route.

 

But technically the LEDs aren't mimicking anything. The controller is programmed to set the colour of each one for the route I've activated.

On 24/12/2021 at 17:29, bigben5051 said:

4.  When I come to extend the layout, can I have multiple mimic and control panels for different areas?

Yes. You will need to isolate them but it's not a problem. It's recommended for large layouts anyway.

Edited December 25, 2021 by AndrueC

[grriff]

There is an alternative method to controlling locos and accessories, which is to use a computer running JMRI (free) software http://www.jmri.org. This allows you to control DCC locos using a conventional DCC controller together with an appropriate USB interface, or a dedicated controller such as a Sprog http://www.sprog-dcc.co.uk. Locos can then be controlled using a smartphone. Accessories can be controlled using the DCC bus or dedicated accessory decoders.

The advantages of such an arrangement are that it is relatively inexpensive, easier to use than many controllers (in my opinion) and you don't need to physically construct a mimic panel, you can build a 'virtual' one on a computer screen. The disadvantages are that you need to be comfortable with computer systems (although coding is not necessary), have a 'spare' computer and possibly construct modules. if you decide to use MERG kits.

As ever, you pays your money and takes your choice.

 

[Ron Ron Ron]

On 24/12/2021 at 17:29, bigben5051 said:

1. Do I connect the point motors to the same bus as the track? If not, what's the best way to do this?

 

Point motors will each need to be driven by their own individual controller (a decoder).

These "Accessory decoders"  (so called because they control various types of accessory, such as point motors)  ....are either a stand alone module, or may be incorporated into the actual point motor itself.

DCC Concepts have digital versions of their Cobalt point motor, with such a built-in decoder.

 

Point motors without a built-in decoder, will have to be powered by a stand-alone accessory decoder module.

These accessory decoders usually have outputs to control anything from a single point motor, to 2, 4, 6 or 8 point motors, depending on the make and model.

 

To your question.

 

Point motors with on-board accessory decoders, can take their power and control signals (same thing in DCC) directly from the adjacent track, or from a power bus , which can either be in the form of a track bus, or a dedicated accessory bus, isolated from the track bus.

Using a separate, dedicated accessory bus is often recommended for all but the smallest of layouts.

 

If you are using separate accessory decoders to control your point motors (i.e. point motors without built-in decoders), then these vary as to how they are connected up.

Most can be connected as for the point motors with built-in decoders, but some types of accessory decoder take their DCC control signals from a power bus, but use a separate DC power supply to provide the motive power to the point motors.

 

 

On 24/12/2021 at 17:29, bigben5051 said:

2. How do I power the layout?   Is it simply a case of buying a controller?

 

In simple terms, yes, you just buy and set up a DCC controller system.

These come in various shapes and sizes, so to speak; ranging from budget, or starter systems, up to some very expensive set ups.

Price usually increases with increasing capability, or range of features and with increasing levels of track power output 

 

(n.b. I personally think it best to remove the word "controller" from this question, or any answers.

It's a meaningless term in regard to DCC, except with regard to DCC decoders.

A DCC decoder, whether a "mobile decoder', that is fitted into moving objects like locos, multiple units or other stock;  or a "stationary decoder", such as the accessory decoders mentioned above; performs the controller function in DCC.)

 

 

On 24/12/2021 at 17:29, bigben5051 said:

3. I understand that I can control points from a handheld controller the same way I would control locos.

If I was to start out with this setup is it easy to upgrade to a system that has a mimic panel, individual levers etc, or is it best to start with the system I ultimately want?

 

Apart from a small number of starter, or budget systems, most DCC systems will allow you to control points from the handset (or console, with a console type system).

This can be quite cumbersome to a lesser or greater degree, depending on the particular make and model of DCC system.

In comparison, it's much easier to control points by DCC via a control panel, either a physical panel, or a via a "glass screen".

Almost all DCC systems can be used with a hardware or software DCC control panel, for point and route control.

This can get expensive though.

 

It can also be a bit tricky and misleading to use the term "mimic panel" in the context of a DCC control panel.

For example, DCC Concepts sell hardware for 2 types of panel, both of which will result in track diagram panels with LED's to indicate point and route settings.

 

Their "Alpha Mimic" set-up is simply an indicator panel.

It does what it says on the tin and "mimics" the point settings controlled by the DCC system.

The module that drives the LED's on the panel, eavesdrops and reads the DCC commands being sent out to the point motor decoders and switches the appropriate LED's on and off accordingly.

There is no form of point control via this panel. It's simply a visual indicator panel.

It can be added to any DCC system, regardless of the method used to switch points.

 

On the other hand, the "Cobalt Alpha" set up, is a different beast.

It's used to build a similar track diagram panel as the "Mimic", but it uses buttons with built-in LED's, that are used to switch points and set up routes, on the panel.

The LED's are switched from the buttons and not from "eavesdropping" on DCC signals.

Cobalt Alpha and similar systems from other manufacturers, are easier to use alternative to operating points via your DCC handset.

These can be used with most makes of DCC system.

 

The "Cobalt Alpha" kit can also use mini point levers instead of buttons, but as Nigel says higher up this thread, there are limitations and less flexibility with this arrangement.

If you specifically want point levers and have no intention or need for any alternative means of point control, such as through a handset or via computer software, then Cobalt Alpha allows this.

 

 

On 24/12/2021 at 17:29, bigben5051 said:

4.  When I come to extend the layout, can I have multiple mimic and control panels for different areas?

 

See my answer to 3.

With the right kit, you can add as many "mimic panels" as you wish.

Similarly, DCC track control panels can be split up to cover different areas of the layout, or, with the right kit,  they can be duplicated.

All this costs more money and can get quite expensive.

 

 

.

Edited December 26, 2021 by Ron Ron Ron

[Nigelcliffe]

14 hours ago, grriff said:

There is an alternative method to controlling locos and accessories, which is to use a computer running JMRI (free) software http://www.jmri.org. This allows you to control DCC locos using a conventional DCC controller together with an appropriate USB interface, or a dedicated controller such as a Sprog http://www.sprog-dcc.co.uk. Locos can then be controlled using a smartphone. Accessories can be controlled using the DCC bus or dedicated accessory decoders.

.....

 

 

I'd agree this is a viable option.  Even if purchasing everything, its still competitive:  Sprog3 and power supply (about £90), a RaspberryPI computer with power and memory card (about £70),  and an Android Tablet (about £100) gets the whole thing running.    

[Andymsa]

The poor OP he must be confused as hell, unfortunately with DCC there are many ways to skin a cat. 
 

Q1. Point motors should have there own bus, not the track bus, as this will take away available power for trains. There are two ways dcc wise to connect this bus. Either with an accessory board that control a group of points or each point has a dcc controller built in with a booster dedicated for this bus.

 

Q2. Making the wrong choice of controller or you should say what system to use can be a costly mistake. You may find a particular system may not have a feature or capability for future use, each manufacturer has plus and bad points so I would list all the manufacturers on a comparison chart and list there features to determine what will be best for you and future needs.

 

Q3. Yes you can start with controlling points from a handset, but your find as things get larger and more points are added remembering each address will be challenging. But using a handset with levers can be done but not advisable because as been pointed out already there be a mismatch in the position of the lever.

Q4. Some sort of mimic panel will be needed a traditional one is the easiest but lacks being altered, there is the electronic method using a screen of some sort. But basically you can extend each method with further mimic panels.

 

Try to use a few systems to see how you interact with them, ease of use ect. I’m not sure if they still do but digitrains has various systems to test in store. Do you know many modellers that have dcc try there systems if you can. One further point although you not mentioned it, is automation going to be a consideration in the future. It would be easier to plan for it now even if not implemented at this time ie track joints ect.

 

 

Edited December 26, 2021 by Andymsa
Spelling

[SamThomas]

1 hour ago, Andymsa said:

There poor OP he must be confused as hell, unfortunately with DCC there are many ways to skin a cat.

 

Indeed, at least some of us have tried to not overcomplicate things.

 

No wonder the OP has not been seen since he posted !

[Ron Ron Ron]

1 hour ago, SamThomas said:

Indeed, at least some of us have tried to not overcomplicate things.

 

No wonder the OP has not been seen since he posted !

 

Genuine question Sam.

Does my post above "overcomplicate things" ?

 

.

[SamThomas]

5 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

Genuine question Sam.

Does my post above "overcomplicate things" ?

 

.

I think from a "newbies" POV maybe it does, but at times I think we can all can tend to do this.

 

I see it often whereas a newbie asks a few questions & is sometimes deluged with information, often conflicting & then is never seen again. Sometimes we can inadverantly try to "outtech" each other in our quest to be helpful.

 

Don't get me wrong, there is a huge amount of knowledge & help here (it has been both ways with me), but sometimes I thing we need to take newbies through a step at a time.

[RobinofLoxley]

One persons complexity is anothers simplicity. Familiarity with a subject often leads to extra details being added beyond the core requirement. Thats the difference between posters here.

[Ron Ron Ron]

Thanks Sam.

Although a lengthy answer, I tried to keep it simple and logical.

Too often, despite the best intentions of the responders, replies on here are muddled, don't actually answer any of the questions being asked, go off at a tangent, use non-standard, ambiguous or inaccurate terminology, etc.

I tried to avoid that by keeping it logical and actually answering the questions.

Apologies if that resulted in a  too "complicated" post.

 

 

.

[DaveArkley]

On 25/12/2021 at 14:20, SamThomas said:

The drawback is that it's quite expensive to start with by the time you have bought the Z21 & a tablet** to run it on (unless you already have one around) but overall, it could be cheaper by the time you have built up to the same level separatly.

 

** you can use a smartphone but it will hammer the battery.

No need to use a smartphone or tablet if you don't wish.

 

The beauty of the Z21 is it's large range of connectivity options, nothing to stop you use traditional throttles with the Z21, anything Loconet or Xpressnet based, or the excellent Multimaus, or combinations of these.

 

Cheers Dave

[SamThomas]

Dave - thanks, I had forgotton about the use of the other controllers.

[melvin]

 Have a look at Gaugemaster new Point Motors. Having had to replace a couple of old ZTC 302 motors I gave these a try. Very pleased. Compact, Built in decoder. Just a matter of setting its address. No requirement for an accessory decoder. Wired to the main bus. My power supply is 5amp, have no trouble switching any of my 20 odd points.

[RFS]

On 28/12/2021 at 16:01, DaveArkley said:

No need to use a smartphone or tablet if you don't wish.

 

The beauty of the Z21 is it's large range of connectivity options, nothing to stop you use traditional throttles with the Z21, anything Loconet or Xpressnet based, or the excellent Multimaus, or combinations of these.

 

Cheers Dave

 

On 28/12/2021 at 20:31, SamThomas said:

Dave - thanks, I had forgotten about the use of the other controllers.

 

Earlier this year I replaced my older Lenz DCC system with the Z21. I retained my fairly new Lenz LH101 throttle which works fine with the Z21. I have a PC as I use automation with Traincontroller, so I therefore use the Z21 Maintenance Tool to manage the Z21 setup. I didn't want to have to use a smartphone or tablet with the railway so the wifi is still in its box. Very pleased with the way everything works. 

[Edward]

Dear "Ron Ron Ron"

I personally very much value your detailed explanations:  I always learn something new.  (Today for example for the first time I understood the difference between Alpha Minic and the Cobalt Panels.   I know now why the LEDs don't change unless you press the button.  It's frustrating that I can use the Mini Panel to run a Macro but the indicator LED doesn't change!  )

 

I didn't understand the Mini Panel either but Larry the DCC Guy has a set of 5 You Tube videos and if you  take a "back to OU" attitude, and go through them slowly,  you learn enough to get results that work.  

Incidentally I find that NCE manuals are very clear but no explanation of what's going on.  Following each step exactly gets the right action though.  On the other hand DCC Concepts manuals never really explain to someone at my level of knowledge what they're about.  ( Very helpful on the phone though!)  

 

 Sorry to the OP for hijacking the thread.