Rail Section length - 1940s GWR

[M.I.B]

How long would a section of rail be on GW or early BR(W) track?    Almost as long as a GANE or CROCODILE suitably fitted for carrying rail?

 

I have some rail to paint and chop up to be scenic items and thought that red lead/rust covered sections would look good and ready to dump between the rails or running lines.  But how many scale feet long?

 

Thank you in advance.

Edited January 4, 2022 by M.I.B
Poor typing

[Miss Prism]

60' for running lines.

 

[Wickham Green too]

60' for MAIN running lines - but there could have been 45' on secondary routes and 30' or bits-an-pieces for the most lowly sidings ! 

[Trog]

Most likely 60'-0" almost everywhere, the 45'-0" rails on branches was I think something of an LNER speciality. Although you might find rails up to a couple of feet under 60'-0" where battered rail ends or dipped joints had been cropped off and the rails re-drilled, depending on how it had been done. There would have also been some shorter rails adjacent to S&C and where two previous rerailing or relaying jobs had met up. If so it would be good practice to fit two somewhat short panels/rails rather than one very short one. So end a job with two 45'-0" panels rather than a 60'-0" and a 30'-0".

Edited January 4, 2022 by Trog
Cr*p spelling.

[The Stationmaster]

Interestingly a book published in the late 1940s states that 60ft rails had replaced 45ft rails comparatively recently.  I do know of one stretch of 45 ft rails which existed on the GE mainline in the early 1960s and which, according to C.J. Allen, had been laid during the war due to a shortage of 60ft rails - which obviously doesn't answer the question for the GWR.

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Trog said:

Most likely 60'-0" almost everywhere, the 45'-0" rails on branches was I think something of an LNER speciality. 

 

Not necessarily - 45 ft was in use by the Midland up to the grouping, so that could easily still be in place on secondary lines into the 50s? The LNWR started using 60 ft rail in place of 30 ft as early as the mid 1890s - but of course they rolled their own. So to my mind a relevant question is, when did the Great Western adopt 60 ft rail? [Edit: cf. Mike's post.]

 

Some careful chair-counting on photos of your chosen prototype or a similar location will be in order!

Edited January 4, 2022 by Compound2632

[Wickham Green too]

If I remember rightly the Mad-Hints was largely 45' until it was lifted to leave only Ropley to Alresford.

[jim.snowdon]

A substantial clue in respect of any company's rail lengths lies in the size of their rail wagons, and when larger types were introduced. For a long time, the standard rail wagon was a pair of single bolster wagons, typically capable of accommodating 30' rails. On the Great Western, these were the Mite Bs (Dia J9), whose origins go way back into the 19th century. The first sign of change is the arrival of the 45' Dia J1 Ganes in 1899, and from then on the standard GWR bogie bolster wagon was the 45' Macaw B in its several variations. The arrival of 60' rails is signalled by the construction of the 62' Gane A / Macaw J wagons in 1935.

But, rails generally last a long time - 20-30 years in reasonable circumstances, far longer on lightly trafficked secondary and branch lines, plus, it was general practice for rails to be cascaded down from main line use to secondary lines to branch lines and sidings. There would, I expect, have been 45' rails still in main line use into the 1950s, and quite probably many branch lines still had them when they were demolished after the Beeching closures.

 

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, jim.snowdon said:

There would, I expect, have been 45' rails still in main line use into the 1950s, 

 

That would have been very worrying for small boys measuring their train's speed by counting the clickety-clacks!

[The Stationmaster]

4 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

That would have been very worrying for small boys measuring their train's speed by counting the clickety-clacks!

It was eye-opening to say the least   Hence CJA's comment about the 45ft rails on the GEML which was made on a railtour returning from Norwich just before we reached the stretch with 45 ft rails.

[M.I.B]

Thank you all.

[Trog]

3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Interestingly a book published in the late 1940s states that 60ft rails had replaced 45ft rails comparatively recently.  I do know of one stretch of 45 ft rails which existed on the GE mainline in the early 1960s and which, according to C.J. Allen, had been laid during the war due to a shortage of 60ft rails - which obviously doesn't answer the question for the GWR.

 There were some short rails laid during the war imported from the USA there was a length restriction on them imposed by either the length of the available wagons state side or the ships hatches/holds.

[Rivercider]

I might be completely wrong about this, but are there not still some sections of 45' rail on the Barnstaple Line even now?

(I know it is not GWR though) 

 

edit - this is only from travelling the route and noticing the very distinct change in the clickety-clack which becomes much more pronounced for a short section so clearly there are two different rail lengths involved. 

 

cheers

Edited January 4, 2022 by Rivercider

[Trog]

1 hour ago, jim.snowdon said:

A substantial clue in respect of any company's rail lengths lies in the size of their rail wagons, and when larger types were introduced. For a long time, the standard rail wagon was a pair of single bolster wagons, typically capable of accommodating 30' rails. On the Great Western, these were the Mite Bs (Dia J9), whose origins go way back into the 19th century. The first sign of change is the arrival of the 45' Dia J1 Ganes in 1899, and from then on the standard GWR bogie bolster wagon was the 45' Macaw B in its several variations. The arrival of 60' rails is signalled by the construction of the 62' Gane A / Macaw J wagons in 1935.

But, rails generally last a long time - 20-30 years in reasonable circumstances, far longer on lightly trafficked secondary and branch lines, plus, it was general practice for rails to be cascaded down from main line use to secondary lines to branch lines and sidings. There would, I expect, have been 45' rails still in main line use into the 1950s, and quite probably many branch lines still had them when they were demolished after the Beeching closures.

 

 

I think that wagon length is only a direct clue to rail length if they don't think to put a runner wagon each end of the bolster wagon a 60'-0" rail on a 45'-0" Macaw B would only have a 7'-6" overhang each end. I have also personally seen rails 720'-0" long delivered on a rake consisting of 4 wheel single bolster wagons.

 

A supervisor I knew once also moved two 720'-0" rails for nearly three miles with no wagon at all just a loco, although I should perhaps not go into any more detail just in case the S&T work out how all their track end cables got cut.

 

OK I am a bit young for the period discussed but the only 45'-0" rails I ever saw in track were 1923 ex LNER material and were still insitu in an ex LNER line when I retired in 2016.

[Compound2632]

3 hours ago, jim.snowdon said:

A substantial clue in respect of any company's rail lengths lies in the size of their rail wagons, and when larger types were introduced.

 

Midland:

Short Rail Wagons D335, 24'6" inside length - 65 built 1889, 6 more 1909 - 24 ft rails

Long Rail Wagons, D334, 30'6" inside length - batches of 50 built 1892. 1895, and 1896, then 180 built 1899 - 30 ft rails

both 12 ton capacity, except the 1909 batch rated 15 tons.

Bogie Rail Wagon, 50 ft over headstocks - 20 built 1907 - 45 ft rails. 

Of course there's no rule that rails have to be carried on rail wagons rather than multiple timber trucks but the former were stores department vehicles so their use did not involve taking revenue-earning vehicles out of traffic.

[Wickham Green too]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

That would have been very worrying for small boys measuring their train's speed by counting the clickety-clacks!

Not just small boys ! .............. which reminds me : I THINK there were still 45' sections on the Cork main line when I first traversed it in 1987 ...... made a VERY syncopated beat under the new MkIII coaches !

[Siberian Snooper]

GW "45ft" rail is actually 44ft 6 ins and there's still some in use on the ESR. 

 

 

[hexagon789]

15 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

Not just small boys ! .............. which reminds me : I THINK there were still 45' sections on the Cork main line when I first traversed it in 1987 ...... made a VERY syncopated beat under the new MkIII coaches !

I don't know about rail length but there was still 1920s laid 90lb rail laid on the Galway & Mayo lines into the 1990s and 85lb on the Sligo line past Mullingar. The former was utterly hammered by the 201s and the latter by the 071s when they were introduced on thise respective routes l, declining maintenance budgets led to increasing numbers of TSRs and eventually derailments (See Knockcroghery, 1997).

 

May well have been 45ft lengths among that lot, even 30ft possibly?

[The Stationmaster]

5 hours ago, Siberian Snooper said:

GW "45ft" rail is actually 44ft 6 ins and there's still some in use on the ESR. 

 

 

In view of the local Per Way Supervisor's enthusiasm for rail end trimming back in the mid-late 1970s when I worked in that area I wonder if those rails had started out 45 ft long?

[Siberian Snooper]

33 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

In view of the local Per Way Supervisor's enthusiasm for rail end trimming back in the mid-late 1970s when I worked in that area I wonder if those rails had started out 45 ft long?

 

They might be,  I  have just had a look in David Smith's switch and crossing practice and he states that 45ft rail was supplied at 44ft 9ins. From that I would assume that the end(s) were trimmed and re-drilled.

[Wickham Green too]

You might have got away with a 3'' trim if only doing one end of a rail drilled for two-bolt fishplates !!?!

[Siberian Snooper]

4 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

You might have got away with a 3'' trim if only doing one end of a rail drilled for two-bolt fishplates !!?!

 

 

I can't say what was done, as it was all in 4 hole fishplates when I started in the mid 80's, up until recently there was still a number of 85lbs? 60ft 2 hole panels still in situ.