Help wanted

[John Besley]

I need some help and guidance...

 

I am pondering old fashioned DC versus DCC and am a bit stumped where to go, The last layout  I built was in 1982 and I used a H&M handheld momentum controller, absolutely brilliant could get locos to crawl at will and stop realistically with the brake function all of this was on DC locos fitted with Portascap RG4 

 

Now we have DCC etc ... Exhill Works is almost at the track laying stage proper and I need some advice.

 

My 2 engines are built on Wren R1 chassis, one still with its existing 3 pole motor and one with a HLK road runner motor and gear box.... other loco's in the planning stage.

 

Question is what do I use... as a fire alarm engineer I love the programming aspect of what I do and can see this working out with DCC,  but no idea where to go on this

 

I gather Zimo decoders (think that's right) are the best ones to go for .... 

 

I expect this has been covered before...

[ITG]

IMHO, I’d say you’ll find it worthwhile popping into a model shop where a range of DCC systems are at least on display, or even preferably try them. Although basically all systems use the same NMRA standards, the power, shape, functionality etc of systems can vary. Some aspects of these variations are best considered relative to what you are planning with the layout. Eg, how big is it, how many locos eventually may be running at once, will locos have sound, will you be operating  accessories  (points, signals etc) with DCC. 
Most if not all systems support both loco and accessory control, using a handheld ‘throttle’ rather like a TV remote (some are wired, or wireless), but other systems work with a separate tablet (iPad, android etc).

You’ll find many different opinions around ‘best’ system, and they may all be right…. In the eyes of the person giving the opinion! Hence why I say go and try them.

Overall, FWIW, I’d say you’ll enjoy DCC. I came back to the hobby just 3-4 years ago and jumped straight in with DCC, and never looked back. The ability to control multiple (sound) locos on tracks without isolating sections is a boon.

Good luck 

Ian

[grriff]

Certainly agree it's best to go to a shop demonstrating DCC. See how you find setting up a loco number on each, since this is something you will have to do. 

It's also worthwhile looking at a Sprog controlled through JMRI. I use this for a small layout and it is great. I'm not too sure how easy it will be to convert a Wrenn chassis for DCC. It is essential that the two track feeds to the decoder are separate from the two feeds from the decoder to to the motor. This may not be possible if the chassis is 'live'. 

If you are just getting into the hobby, Davy Dick's free book on 'Electronics for model railways', available from the home page of MERG (www.merg.org.uk) is very good. 

Good luck

David

[JST]

I have a Wrenn loco running quite happily on DCC. Due to one of the brushes being live to the chassis I had it converted professionally by this guy :-

 

http://scalespeed.co.uk

 

He did a great job. I had the armature rewound and the magnet re-magnitised which is a good idea if the motors are a bit long in the tooth.

 

Best of luck

 

John

[John Besley]

12 hours ago, ITG said:

IMHO, I’d say you’ll find it worthwhile popping into a model shop where a range of DCC systems are at least on display, or even preferably try them. Although basically all systems use the same NMRA standards, the power, shape, functionality etc of systems can vary. Some aspects of these variations are best considered relative to what you are planning with the layout. Eg, how big is it, how many locos eventually may be running at once, will locos have sound, will you be operating  accessories  (points, signals etc) with DCC. 
Most if not all systems support both loco and accessory control, using a handheld ‘throttle’ rather like a TV remote (some are wired, or wireless), but other systems work with a separate tablet (iPad, android etc).

You’ll find many different opinions around ‘best’ system, and they may all be right…. In the eyes of the person giving the opinion! Hence why I say go and try them.

Overall, FWIW, I’d say you’ll enjoy DCC. I came back to the hobby just 3-4 years ago and jumped straight in with DCC, and never looked back. The ability to control multiple (sound) locos on tracks without isolating sections is a boon.

Good luck 

Ian

 

Ok, my layout is about 10' long  shelf layout

 

I guess I'll have no more than 2 locos  in use at anyone time as its essentialy a shunting puzzle with no run round loop requiring shunt and realise.

 

Torbay is a bit thin on the ground for decent model railway specialist shops so not too sure where to go on that front.

 

How many different operating systems / protocol are there?

[John Besley]

4 hours ago, JST said:

I have a Wrenn loco running quite happily on DCC. Due to one of the brushes being live to the chassis I had it converted professionally by this guy :-

 

http://scalespeed.co.uk

 

He did a great job. I had the armature rewound and the magnet re-magnitised which is a good idea if the motors are a bit long in the tooth.

 

Best of luck

 

John

 

Having built a HLK motor and gearbox for one loco I am tempted to do the same for the other, this will mean building separate current collectors pick ups.

 

One thing I would love to do is be able to run the locos headlights separately so they stay on once the loco is turned on, considering sound as well for the diesels, not sure about sound for the couple of steam locos as I think this might sound a bit to fake.

 

Hadn't thought about point control... that might be worth considering, couplings will be working 16mm chopper couplings not Kadee as these are to tiny for my scale of 7/8ths 0-16.5

[SamThomas]

As others have suggested see if you can go to a shop that has a selection of DCC equipment to demo.

 

Everyone has a "faviourite" decoder - my go to ATM is a Lenz Silver. I also have a few Zimo & ESU & would recommend any of them.

 

As for the control unit I would look at the handheld ones, suck as GM Prodigy, Roco Maultimaus, both of which have "proper" rotary speed knobs. The Powercab is very popular but I personally do not like it - too clunky & heavy.

 

Generally, apart from the Roco z21/Z21 I would avoid any of the trainsel brands, they tend to be very basic & limiting. I'd also avoid any DCC equipment from TGGH.

[John Besley]

Just trying to look up some of the above suggestions.... Gaugemaster seem to be out of stock of most DCC items ...

 

Any bright ideas?

 

And what about decoders? 

 

Bearing in mind the size of my layout what is the most cost effective way forward... I could stick with Old fashioned analogue but would need a decent quality hand held controller.

 

How does a stay alive work? - seen references to them on a couple of threads

[WIMorrison]

for decoders I would suggest that you only consider Zimo - the most reliable available.

[Lemmy282]

14 minutes ago, John Besley said:

How does a stay alive work? - seen references to them on a couple of threads

A capacitor or group of them and associated charging circuit are wired into the decoder and store energy. It is used to power the decoder if it loses supply due to dirty track or wheels etc. Some only last a fraction of a second, some several seconds, it depends on which you buy.

[Izzy]

If you don’t mind using, and have a laptop around to use, (an old spare even), then perhaps a Sprog 2 or 3 would be a cheapish solution. It’s a USB command station/ decoder programmer driven by the JMRI/decoder pro open source software app. Throttle control has to be on-screen but there is the option, if you have them, to use android/Apple phones/tablets as hand held wi-fi throttles. About £60 or so will get you started. Zimo budget decoders will be all you need @ £20 a pop. Might as well start with the best. 

[John Besley]

21 minutes ago, Izzy said:

If you don’t mind using, and have a laptop around to use, (an old spare even), then perhaps a Sprog 2 or 3 would be a cheapish solution. It’s a USB command station/ decoder programmer driven by the JMRI/decoder pro open source software app. Throttle control has to be on-screen but there is the option, if you have them, to use android/Apple phones/tablets as hand held wi-fi throttles. About £60 or so will get you started. Zimo budget decoders will be all you need @ £20 a pop. Might as well start with the best. 

 

OK that might be my answer, I am not adverse to building something, out in the workshop I have a desktop PC ... is there a link to this somewhere? ... intresting so I could use my mobile as a controller?...

 

Just found a small laptop unused in a cupboard that will proberly fit the bill just to set up ... 

 

Could do with some suppliers contacts for the above

 

Edited January 10, 2022 by John Besley

[ITG]

I bought my Sprog from https://coastaldcc.co.uk/ but there are many other suppliers - just Google.

JMRI is a downloadable open source system - just Google and download. Each to their own, but I dabbled with JMRI ( albeit only for points control using LayoutPro and DecoderPro for cv changes) and I personally wouldn’t recommended it for a DCC novice. I didn’t find it the most intuitive programme, and it’s a double learning challenge on DCC and JMRI simultaneously.

(Note to OP - LayoutPro and DecoderPro are two of the functions within JMRI.)

 

Using a cheap solution is only cheap if it works effectively for you, but expensive if you then have to purchase something else. I’m not trying to put the OP off the suggested JMRI/Sprog solution - only to make him aware of what I would say is a significant difference between that and buying an off the shelf DCC system.

[Izzy]

9 hours ago, John Besley said:

 

OK that might be my answer, I am not adverse to building something, out in the workshop I have a desktop PC ... is there a link to this somewhere? ... intresting so I could use my mobile as a controller?...

 

Just found a small laptop unused in a cupboard that will proberly fit the bill just to set up ... 

 

Could do with some suppliers contacts for the above

 

here you go:

https://www.sprog-dcc.co.uk/    The owner is on RMweb, provides excellent help when asked/needed, and there is a Sprog DCC group on groups.io which does the same.

 

https://www.jmri.org/

 

The advantage is that this combination has the ability to allow you to do just about whatever you want in DCC from just controlling one loco to full automation, and everything in-between. Just as a decoder programmer alone it’s - probably - the best piece of kit you could get. The setup doesn’t suit everyone’s tastes but for VFM it’s hard to beat thanks to the hard work of all those who produce/maintain/update/upgrade JMRI.

 

Bob

 

 

[Harlequin]

The people who make Sprogs make a version called "Pi-Sprog". That is a Sprog DCC interface in a form that connects directly to a Raspberry Pi, making a small unit that you can fix directly to your layout if required.

 

The Raspberry Pi is a fully functional Linux computer with both wired and wireless network, you just need to plug in a monitor, keyboard and mouse.

 

The Sprog people can also sell you a memory card to plug into the Pi that contains a Linux installation, the Sprog drivers, and JMRI all pre-installed. Pi4 ~£34, Pi-Sprog ~ £70, PSU ~£20, memory card ~£20 (not sure).  Thus, a relatively cheap, fully functional turnkey setup.

 

This all makes for a very neat self-contained package dedicated to the layout. The wifi on the Pi allows the layout to be driven from mobile phones or tablets using free apps that are compatible with JMRI.

 

I run two layouts this way.

 

Edited January 11, 2022 by Harlequin

[KingEdwardII]

On 09/01/2022 at 23:08, John Besley said:

I love the programming aspect of what I do

If you're into tech stuff and some programming, then the Raspberry Pi + JMRI approach outlined above by @Harlequin should work for you. The Pi 4 (or the complete package Pi 400) is a great computer system to use for software driving your layout.

 

The Sprog is at the low cost end of DCC controllers - with limitations on its capabilities. However, you can take an upgrade path if you decide that the Sprog does not have the capabilities you need. My own system is based on a Pi 400 driving the layout through a Digikeijs 5000 DCC controller - I can drive both locos and accessories (point motors etc) via the Pi, or also via WiFi linked smartphone running the EngineDriver app.

 

JMRI is open source and free to install - so it can be viewed as a good starting point on the software side. There are a number of commercial packages available which are more sophisticated and more user-friendly, but which also have a significant cost associated with them. Like Sprog, JMRI can be viewed as a good starting point for the software side of our hobby, with the potential to upgrade to something else if it does not give you the capabilities you're looking for.

 

Yours,  Mike.

[jpendle]

18 hours ago, SamThomas said:

I'd also avoid any DCC equipment from TGGH.

Hi,

 

Who are TGGH?

 

Thanks,

 

John P

[SamThomas]

26 minutes ago, jpendle said:

Hi,

 

Who are TGGH?

 

Thanks,

 

John P

The Great God Hornby.

[Crosland]

On 11/01/2022 at 11:08, KingEdwardII said:

The Sprog is at the low cost end of DCC controllers - with limitations on its capabilities.

 

With a SPROG, the computer is the command station or system, so the limitations are set mainly by the software you use. With JMRI you can program decoders, run trains, control points, signals and other accessories, create "Glass panels", etc.,...

 

We don't have SPROG specific throttles but you can use WiThrottle or EngineDriver apps on 'phones or tablets.

 

We don't (yet) have feedback but the beauty of JMRI is that you are not tied to one manufacturer. You can have multiple hardware connections so you can create a feedback system using Loconet, Xpressnet, CBUS, etc.,...

 

I'm not saying it's perfect, and I hope this isn't too much self-promotion, but I wanted to address the comment.

[John Besley]

I could do with a 'shopping list'

 

Part No / descriptions / suppliers etc. so I have some idea what I need from a Sprog up to the connection to a loco 

 

I do realise I am asking the converted but I am still lost in a haze...

[trevora]

26 minutes ago, John Besley said:

I could do with a 'shopping list'

https://www.sprog-dcc.co.uk/

[Nigelcliffe]

6 minutes ago, John Besley said:

I could do with a 'shopping list'

 

Part No / descriptions / suppliers etc. so I have some idea what I need from a Sprog up to the connection to a loco 

 

I do realise I am asking the converted but I am still lost in a haze...

 

Sprog - either a SprogII or a Sprog3 (the difference is power output, and price).  For a bench test setup, SprogII has plenty of power.    Plus a power supply for the Sprog. 
Buy both Sprog and Power Supply from Sprog-DCC directly, then you *know* you have the correct power supply. 

https://www.sprog-dcc.co.uk/  

 

You'll need to add a couple of pieces of wire to connect the Sprog to the track you are using. 

 

 

 

Plus to the above, a computer capable of running the current release of JMRI (free open source software).  At least Windows7(*) or a 64bit Mac, with a USB port to connect the Sprog.   Or Linux if you know how to setup and install Linux.  

 

You need a version of Java on your machine, do this first, and do it from this page, because you'll then be setup for the next updates to JMRI from the outset:

 

https://www.jmri.org/java/

 

Then, download and install the current JMRI production release (it gets updated every six months, keep updating every six months).

 

https://www.jmri.org/download/index.shtml#prod-rel

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, the stuff which plugs into Raspberry PI's is nice (and I use some of it), but if there is an existing laptop around, the SprogII or Sprog3 are the simplest, and well understood products, which have been around for very long time. 

 

 

 

(* you can force XP/Vista/old-rubbish to load an almost acceptable version of Java, but its not worth the hassle....)

 

 

- Nigel

[Crosland]

I can't disagree with anything Nigel has written

 

[grriff]

Once you have set up JMRI, my advice would be to use the DecoderPro part of the program. Use this to explore the decoder settings, change the default loco number from 3 and drive the loco using the throttle. You could also try loading 'Engine Driver' onto a smartphone and using that. 

You can then move on to PanelPro to control accessories. 

It's worthwhile joining MERG (www.merg.org.uk) if you are happy to solder

 

[John Besley]

Where do I get Engine driver app from?

 

And Zimo decoders