Are we turning into a can't do society ?

[33C]

1 hour ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

 

It was the same years ago with Meccano, which was in my view the best learning aid a budding engineer could have. I don't know if Lego offers the same creative opportunities, but besides the "official" plans I built all sorts of stuff with Meccano from which I learned a lot.

I loved my Army Meccano, I still do, but the James May Toy Stories series episode about Meccano, when he gave some, supposedly, quite bright children, a simple crane building task, was tragic, maybe not for their ability to understand instructions, but their whole attitude throughout. They treated it as a joke. These are the future adults who may go into middle management or local government etc, let's be honest, who will be unable to change a tyre/fuse, and who will get around on electric scooters and have no sense of the danger they will put themselves in because the Highway code, being instructions, is a joke...rant over! 

[colin smith]

10 minutes ago, 33C said:

I loved my Army Meccano, I still do, but the James May Toy Stories series episode about Meccano, when he gave some, supposedly, quite bright children, a simple crane building task, was tragic, maybe not for their ability to understand instructions, but their whole attitude throughout. They treated it as a joke. These are the future adults who may go into middle management or local government etc, let's be honest, who will be unable to change a tyre/fuse, and who will get around on electric scooters and have no sense of the danger they will put themselves in because the Highway code, being instructions, is a joke...rant over! 

 

Of course it was a joke to them. It's an antique. I'm not sure what was a popular toy some fifty years before I was born but I bet the young me would have thought that was a joke as well. Bear in mind many of these kids will be happy building entire civilisations on Minecraft so manky bits of metal and a few bolts are unlikely to appeal.

 

As for fuses, I can't remember the last time  time I changed a fuse but I have flicked more than a few trip switches and while I can change a bicycle tyre it's not my favourite job and I'd happily pay someone to do it. Never owned a car but I think I'd just take it to the garage.

Life moves on and the skills people need or want to develop move with it.

[Bernard Lamb]

2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

There are also the things they can do, which I wish they couldn't, and certainly wouldn't have the faintest idea how to do myself.

 

Yesterday evening, my 14yo son was watching a live footy match on his supposed-to-be-for-school-work-only laptop. I was mystified, because it was clearly Sky TV, which we don't subscribe to, so I asked him "How come?". Very sheepish grin, er ..... um ........ streaming it from a dodgy website that "taps" Sky, but not only that, he was somehow re-streaming it to two of his mates, so they could watch it together, and exchange football banter at the same time.

 

I'm pretty sure this was illegal!

 

 

In a similar vein, when quite young kids were issued with computers for home use during the lock down, they soon worked out how to mute people and to leave their device on while they cleared off elsewhere. They soon cottoned on as to how to get false positive results on covid tests. It might not be doing things in the way that we know them but the youngsters seem to be quite involved in doing things to me.

 

In pre internet days you could get cards that worked in the TV to allow the viewing of paid programs. I would not know how to go about such a thing but I did hear that the source was an address in Dublin.

Bernard

[Reorte]

44 minutes ago, colin smith said:

 

Of course it was a joke to them. It's an antique. I'm not sure what was a popular toy some fifty years before I was born but I bet the young me would have thought that was a joke as well. Bear in mind many of these kids will be happy building entire civilisations on Minecraft so manky bits of metal and a few bolts are unlikely to appeal.

More the fool them then.

[33C]

41 minutes ago, colin smith said:

 

Of course it was a joke to them. It's an antique. I'm not sure what was a popular toy some fifty years before I was born but I bet the young me would have thought that was a joke as well. Bear in mind many of these kids will be happy building entire civilisations on Minecraft so manky bits of metal and a few bolts are unlikely to appeal.

 

As for fuses, I can't remember the last time  time I changed a fuse but I have flicked more than a few trip switches and while I can change a bicycle tyre it's not my favourite job and I'd happily pay someone to do it. Never owned a car but I think I'd just take it to the garage.

Life moves on and the skills people need or want to develop move with it.

My point was that in a classroom setting, a task has been set, instructions given and a problem to be solved and overcome, eg, the mistake in the instructions. The TV cameras may be a distraction I know, which would be all the more reason not to show the world how you react to these given circumstances. In this case, not well. The task is immaterial to the attitude. 

[colin smith]

43 minutes ago, Reorte said:

More the fool them then.

Have you ever played Minecraft?

[colin smith]

44 minutes ago, 33C said:

My point was that in a classroom setting, a task has been set, instructions given and a problem to be solved and overcome, eg, the mistake in the instructions. The TV cameras may be a distraction I know, which would be all the more reason not to show the world how you react to these given circumstances. In this case, not well. The task is immaterial to the attitude. 

The TV cameras weren't a distraction. TV was the whole purpose and I would argue the children responded in exactly the way the camera wanted.

[Ozexpatriate]

3 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

It was the same years ago with Meccano, which was in my view the best learning aid a budding engineer could have. I don't know if Lego offers the same creative opportunities, ...

In my view the whole of LEGO offerings offers vastly more creative opportunities than Meccano.

 

LEGO Technic is essentially the plastic equivalent of Meccano - not as strong in terms of ability to carry a load, but not limited in terms of creativity. There are many motorizing options, some of which have Android/IOS controls.

 

Then there are LEGO BOOST, LEGO MINDSTORMS and LEGO ROBOTICS. LEGO ROBOTICS are popular in schools for holding competitions where programming skills are learnt and developed. This is usually extra-curricular and led by volunteers.

 

All that sits on top of the LEGO building blocks which have virtually unlimited creative opportunities. LEGO has very much moved beyond everything looking like a brick outhouse into the sculptural space. Contemporary sets involve making (somewhat) realistic models of flowers and there are multiple Harry Potter sets with sculptured birds. Two sets (an owl and a phoenix) have wings that flap based on turning a crank - combining Technic with the 'bricks'.

 

The company continues to experiment with augmented reality products where the building/play experience interacts with virtual content. I don't think they have really 'cracked the code' with this yet.

 

One big limitation, much like Meccano in the 'good old days', is that it is expensive.

 

Edited January 21, 2022 by Ozexpatriate

[33C]

20 minutes ago, colin smith said:

The TV cameras weren't a distraction. TV was the whole purpose and I would argue the children responded in exactly the way the camera wanted.

Unfortunately then, nobody comes out looking good.....

[Ozexpatriate]

2 hours ago, 33C said:

... the James May Toy Stories series episode about Meccano, when he gave some, supposedly, quite bright children, a simple crane building task, was tragic, maybe not for their ability to understand instructions, but their whole attitude throughout. They treated it as a joke.

I would defer to the showbiz maxim "never work with children or animals" on this one.

 

Which according to Wikiquotes, belongs, not to W.C. Fields but one Leo Rosten:

Quote

"The only thing I can say about W. C. Fields ... is this: Any man who hates dogs and babies can't be all bad."

 

[colin smith]

44 minutes ago, 33C said:

Unfortunately then, nobody comes out looking good.....

 

I saw that episode of Toy Stories and enjoyed it but I don't think we see the world the same way or even want to live in the same world. 

Incidentally, James May's entire TV career is based on the premise that it's all a bit of a joke.

Edited January 21, 2022 by colin smith

[rockershovel]

.... which is all very interesting, but I have to say this; I work with VR on occasions and a great deal of effort had been expended to make it intuitive - ie, requiring no particular skill beyond the ability to push a couple of buttons on a small handset. 

 

A few years ago I was being assured that the ability to play video games was much in demand in occupations like ROV pilot. This wasn't true; ROV need to be maintained and that's part of the pilot's job. There is a requirement for accurate record keeping, also not a feature of video games. There is the important task of thinking ahead in an environment where there may, or may not be a solution, and of awareness of factors outside the screen (I once saw an ROV flown into a ships screw, fir example). 

 

However the REAL punchline is that the development of autonomous AUV rovers means that the old-style ROV pilot are rapidly being displaced from survey work, though construction work still requires them for the time being

 

[62613]

1 hour ago, colin smith said:

Have you ever played Minecraft?

It's fantastic, though I have no idea how it works. The universe my 6 - year old granddaughter has created is out of this world (excuse the pun!). Buildings, cows, cats that meow, the lot!

 

[Reorte]

1 hour ago, colin smith said:

Have you ever played Minecraft?

No, closest I've got to it is Dwarf Fortress. I've been thinking of giving it a go, VR version.

[colin smith]

21 minutes ago, 62613 said:

It's fantastic, though I have no idea how it works. The universe my 6 - year old granddaughter has created is out of this world (excuse the pun!). Buildings, cows, cats that meow, the lot!

 

I haven't played it and for quite a while I was cynical about it. I actually thought it was something to do with mining! Then it was explained to me and I realised just how complex, educational, and creative it is. I'm too old to get into it but I can see its potential.

[colin smith]

38 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

.... which is all very interesting, but I have to say this; I work with VR on occasions and a great deal of effort had been expended to make it intuitive - ie, requiring no particular skill beyond the ability to push a couple of buttons on a small handset. 

 

A few years ago I was being assured that the ability to play video games was much in demand in occupations like ROV pilot. This wasn't true; ROV need to be maintained and that's part of the pilot's job. There is a requirement for accurate record keeping, also not a feature of video games. There is the important task of thinking ahead in an environment where there may, or may not be a solution, and of awareness of factors outside the screen (I once saw an ROV flown into a ships screw, fir example). 

 

However the REAL punchline is that the development of autonomous AUV rovers means that the old-style ROV pilot are rapidly being displaced from survey work, though construction work still requires them for the time being

 

 

I think that's somewhat missing the point. I write novels and in all honesty it doesn't take much craft skill to write a novel: it's basically a lot of typing. But to write a good novel you also need imagination, invention, psychological insight, self-criticism, research skills, self-discipline, and so on and so on.  The same applies to creating things in VR. Just look at the work on Annie's Virtual Pre-Grouping, Grouping and BR Layouts & Workbench thread.

[rockershovel]

10 hours ago, colin smith said:

 

I think that's somewhat missing the point. I write novels and in all honesty it doesn't take much craft skill to write a novel: it's basically a lot of typing. But to write a good novel you also need imagination, invention, psychological insight, self-criticism, research skills, self-discipline, and so on and so on.  The same applies to creating things in VR. Just look at the work on Annie's Virtual Pre-Grouping, Grouping and BR Layouts & Workbench thread.

Agreed, but not quite my point, which was that the "gamers" were good with the levers but tended to display a distinct lack or real-world skills (like mechanical ability, time management and the simple robustness to get out on a freezing  wet ROV hangar at 3am to diagnose and fix a leaky cable gland). 

[hayfield]

17 hours ago, johnofwessex said:

 

Secondly my paternal great grandfather born in 1890 did his own decorating which was very unusual in those days, not only that but many of the materials used were not that easy to use.  Also of course like most of the population in those days he rented his house so clearly much of the maintenence would have been the landlords responsibility.

 

 

 

My parents rented a property for probably the best part of 50 years, in those days rents were controlled, so the landlord had great difficulty increasing rents, in some ways the landlord was responsible for major maintenance, which hardly ever happened. A local law was past that every house should have a bathroom, the landlord never built one, the Local council did it and put a charge on the property. We had coal fires, my parents like other tenants bought them and paid for the installation. From memory the local authority made the area a smokeless zone and there were grants  to switch over to (town) gas, North sea gas was much later). As for decorating that again was down to the tennant

 

In defence of the landlord, due to controlled rents he was loosing money, in the end when properties became vacant they were never re-let, he sold two a year to just to keep the business afloat. Our second property was a house across the road from my parents, when the tenant died we negotiated to buy the property from him. We gutted the house owing to its state of repair and lived with my wife's parents whilst we did it up with the help of friends ( this was usual for those getting on the house buying market

 

The lucky tenants were rehoused into council houses, certainly the street where I lived, those that rented all suffered the same under controlled rents, little or no maintenance, certainly no decorating, I had a saturday job at the local DIY shop. I also remember my mum dragging  large heavy wallpaper paten books  home on the bus and it had to be ordered !!

 

In the 80's private rented properties were is such short supply that to make renting viable shorthold tenancy was bought in and except for council housing controlled rent died a death

 

[Jol Wilkinson]

14 hours ago, colin smith said:

 

I think that's somewhat missing the point. I write novels and in all honesty it doesn't take much craft skill to write a novel: it's basically a lot of typing. But to write a good novel you also need imagination, invention, psychological insight, self-criticism, research skills, self-discipline, and so on and so on.  The same applies to creating things in VR. Just look at the work on Annie's Virtual Pre-Grouping, Grouping and BR Layouts & Workbench thread.

 

Just like designing an etched kit or creating a period model of railway, then.

Edited January 22, 2022 by Jol Wilkinson
typo

[rockershovel]

3 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

My parents rented a property for probably the best part of 50 years, in those days rents were controlled, so the landlord had great difficulty increasing rents, in some ways the landlord was responsible for major maintenance, which hardly ever happened. A local law was past that every house should have a bathroom, the landlord never built one, the Local council did it and put a charge on the property. We had coal fires, my parents like other tenants bought them and paid for the installation. From memory the local authority made the area a smokeless zone and there were grants  to switch over to (town) gas, North sea gas was much later). As for decorating that again was down to the tennant

 

In defence of the landlord, due to controlled rents he was loosing money, in the end when properties became vacant they were never re-let, he sold two a year to just to keep the business afloat. Our second property was a house across the road from my parents, when the tenant died we negotiated to buy the property from him. We gutted the house owing to its state of repair and lived with my wife's parents whilst we did it up with the help of friends ( this was usual for those getting on the house buying market

 

The lucky tenants were rehoused into council houses, certainly the street where I lived, those that rented all suffered the same under controlled rents, little or no maintenance, certainly no decorating, I had a saturday job at the local DIY shop. I also remember my mum dragging  large heavy wallpaper paten books  home on the bus and it had to be ordered !!

 

In the 80's private rented properties were is such short supply that to make renting viable shorthold tenancy was bought in and except for council housing controlled rent died a death

 

Orwell makes some shrewd observations about the deficiencies of small landlords, in Road to Wigan Pier. Hence also the great programmes of slum clearance and social housing which characterised the 1930s (he didn't live to see the great postwar housing programme )

 

Another great problem of the rental sector  was the inflation of the 1960s and 1970s. Householders benefitted  by maintaining the value of their capital and controlling their accommodation costs, but for the renter the boot was on the other foot - the landlord needs constantly increasing rents to maintain the return on his capital.

Edited January 22, 2022 by rockershovel

[hayfield]

2 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

Orwell makes some shrewd observations about the deficiencies of small landlords, in Road to Wigan Pier. Hence also the great programmes of slum clearance and social housing which characterised the 1930s (he didn't live to see the great postwar housing programme )

 

But how many people did it actually help ?

 

When I got married we did not qualify for social housing, there were no houses being privately rented, we had two options. 1 live with parents. 2 buy our own house.

 

Out of our group of many friends all but 2 bought houses ( we all came from working class homes). One who was a builder and did a deal with someone they knew and renovated a substandard house for much reduced rent. The second lived with one of their parents and it was not until they had 2 of their own children that they were rehoused into council housing

 

There was no houses to rent for young people as controlled rents made it uneconomical for old style landlords 

[Jol Wilkinson]

39 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

Orwell makes some shrewd observations about the deficiencies of small landlords, in Road to Wigan Pier. Hence also the great programmes of slum clearance and social housing which characterised the 1930s (he didn't live to see the great postwar housing programme )

 

Another great problem of the rental sector  was the inflation of the 1960s and 1970s. Householders benefitted  by maintaining the value of their capital and controlling their accommodation costs, but for the renter the boot was on the other foot - the landlord needs constantly increasing rents to maintain the return on his capital.

Part of rent increases happened because large commercial property holders revalue their properties on the balance sheet in line with property inflation. That then requires increased rent to provide a satisfactory income against the new "value" and to keep the shareholders happy. I was a "victim" of that when the retail shop I rented had the rent revalued by the owners, Liverpool Victoria, after increasing the book value of their of retail properties in that location. 

[colin smith]

3 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

 

Just like designing an etched kit or creating a period model of railway, then.

 

Indeed. There are a lot of similarities. There are also a lot of similarities with the skills need to create virtual worlds.

[colin smith]

5 hours ago, rockershovel said:

Agreed, but not quite my point, which was that the "gamers" were good with the levers but tended to display a distinct lack or real-world skills (like mechanical ability, time management and the simple robustness to get out on a freezing  wet ROV hangar at 3am to diagnose and fix a leaky cable gland). 

 

I was distinguishing between games that are played within a virtual environment made by the designer of the game, and games where the creation of a functioning and successful society/civilisation/economy/whatever is the point of the game. The latter requires a lot more than being good with levers.

[Reorte]

5 hours ago, rockershovel said:

Agreed, but not quite my point, which was that the "gamers" were good with the levers but tended to display a distinct lack or real-world skills (like mechanical ability, time management and the simple robustness to get out on a freezing  wet ROV hangar at 3am to diagnose and fix a leaky cable gland). 

Well if you're going with the stereotypes they're still up at 3 am

 

I was last night anyway, playing games. I've also been up until then soldering a wagon together.

Edited January 22, 2022 by Reorte