Are we turning into a can't do society ?

[hayfield]

At school we were taught a wide range of basics, not only academic but practical, At senior school we had both metalwork and woodwork lessons, as well as art we had technical drawing  all of which have not only been useful in railway modelling but in my home improvement projects

 

When we bought our first property we had to do most of the improvements ourselves, our second house we gutted and we all mucked in with each others houses

 

6 years ago we moved to a new property, a year later we had planning approved and instructed a building firm. Like lots of others we started to have issues with the builders and parted company with them I must have done at least half the work myself and employed the trades for the more specialist work

 

We bought a couple of new recliners this week for the family room, they cost us four figures but we still had to pay £69 delivery and putting them together. The salesman (nearly as old as me) tried to tell me it was a difficult job putting them together !!! Try building a stud wall and fitting a door into it

 

Last year we ordered a new set of bedroom cabinets, the sales person enquired who was installing them. Then looked astonished when I said I was. They were flat pack and I had to modify them to fit under the RSY holding the chimney up !!

 

It seems to me many now want everything done for them. Is it they are leaving school without being taught basic life skills, which includes cooking !!!

[friscopete]

Its "bicycle repair man 'ala Monty python come true .My son in law took his wifes bike to a repair shop to fix two puntures .He is a race car mechanic  although managerial now .He still works on his own  road  cars .He was actually on holiday over Christmas which in its self was a miracle so had loads of time to put in two new tubes and teach his son how to do it  but no .I despair .The people  next door to me can do nothing .There a persistant  scrum of workers fixing god knows what  even through the full lock down .

[Nearholmer]

In answer to the question posed: no.

 

In every generation some skills that were widespead among the previous generation fade, and a few new ones, not possesed by the previous generation, become increasingly common. 

 

If that didnt happen, we'd all be adept at subsistence farming, including driving teams of oxen at the plough, but wouldn't have the faintest idea how to drive motorcars, or know how to scour the internet for the best electricity tariff.

 

Things change.

 

I'm getting to the age where I have a moan about that fact now, but as King Canute demonstrated to his court: no man can hold back the tide.

 

And, the idea that kids aren't taught anything about cooking at school is way off-beam. Have read of this https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/national-curriculum-in-england-design-and-technology-programmes-of-study/national-curriculum-in-england-design-and-technology-programmes-of-study My son actually quite likes the cookery part of the curriculum, whereas when I was at school, only girls got to do that; us chaps learned hot-rivetting, a skill that I have never once since needed, whereas cooking I've had to learn by trial, and a lot of errors. 

 

People who employ tradespeople to do every task for them have simply got the money to do so, and nothing more pressing to spend it on. The chap two down from us is like that, forever employing people to do what to me seem like pointless tasks, because he can: he had the roof of his house jet-washed to clean the tiles, and paid two chaps to bring a cherry-picker and hang christmas lights up for him. 

[colin smith]

Many of the skills I possess could not have been envisaged thirty years ago because the technology did not exist.

At he same time, if you're earning good money you may prefer to spend quality time with your family or pursuing things that interests you, rather than hanging wallpaper or fitting carpets, and so paying someone who is better at it than you while you go off and enjoy yourself makes sense. There's nothing whatsoever virtuous about having a miserable time doing something less efficiently and less well than a professional.

In short, people can still 'do' it's just that the things that they do are different to what people used to do.

Edited January 20, 2022 by colin smith

[Ian Smeeton]

Chequebook modelling???

 

Regards

 

Ian

[Derekstuart]

Nearholmer, as ever, is wise and fair in his posts.

 

It is true that expectations change and skills must change with them. However, I take a bit of an issue with his suggestion that otherwise we'd all be living an agricultural subsistence farming life.

 

Do we not still need farms for food production? Yes we do. Do we need people who understand how to tend flocks/ herds of animals? Yes we do. We now have computer controlled manufacturing, but as Hayfield has noted- do we not still need people who understand how to use basic production and assembly tools?

I am middle aged and even I missed out on a lot of the practical engineering tuition during education, so Lord knows how younger people are coping. Well here's news for you- Germany, France, Netherlands, India, USA.... they're all still teaching basic engingeering and they are running rings around us. I have recently bought a lot of equipment for work and am quite enjoying learning engineering- so much in fact that I am suggesting business opportunities in manufacturing to our group Chairman.

[Andy Hayter]

On the agricultural side the simple statements of do we still need people to grow food and tend to animals widely misses current trends:

 

Tractors guided through fields and adjusting the feed of pesticide or fertiliser on a second by second basis based on drone images is now replacing the we've got a case of xyz at the bottom of long field and then spray the whole field or whole farm to correct it.

 

Milking cows now involves a machine reading the ear tag or even a chip, weighing the beast as it moves down the milking parlour, automatically placing the pre-disinfected suction cups to the teats, measuring the milk output from each teat, flagging possible mastitis and providing a feed supplement for the cow to consume while it is being milked.  The supplement being based specifically for the beast based on the metrics.  And all of that has replaced bringing daisy into the parlour, putting on the milking cups and measuring the amount of milk she has produced.  Then turning her out into the barn or the fields to eat whatever is available.

 

So the modern farmer (or next generation farmer) will be more an engineer, computer expert, data analyst than someone who grows wheat and tends animals.   How good a thing that is, time will tell.

[Rivercider]

I did woodwork and metalwork at school for a couple of years, but never got on with it, probably as I did not have confidence to get stuck in, being afraid of making mistakes.

My dad was not a very practical man, but I learned a few basic DIY skills, I can change a plug, assemble flat pack furniture, and quite enjoy gloss and emulsion painting, though hate the prep work and cleaning up. In general though when it comes to most jobs around the house my view has always been that I would rather do some overtime, and pay a man (or woman) to do it properly.

 

It does seem that many modern items are comprised of sealed units that cannot easily be repaired (if at all) leading to a disposable culture, rather than mend.

 

cheers

[SR71]

Industry has spent a long time telling us we aren't clever enough to repair their products. As profit moved from sales to service this was inevitable.

 

Those items where manufacturers weren't set up to profitably provide service, e.g. white goods, go out of their way to give the impression their goods are magic boxes and you must replace not repair.

 

What drives me mad is paying professionals to do a job to a lower standard than I can manage. My house had new kitchen fitted by a named brand before I bought it. This is the first year in five that I've not had to have a significant part of it dismantled to repair something they had bodged.

 

That said, carpet fitters and plasterers do their job ten times better and faster than I could and are well worth the money!

[Nearholmer]

5 hours ago, Derekstuart said:

It is true that expectations change and skills must change with them. However, I take a bit of an issue with his suggestion that otherwise we'd all be living an agricultural subsistence farming life

Maybe I put it clumsily, but I wasn’t trying to say we’d all still be living like medieval peasants, rather that unless we follow the natural process of ceasing to learn things we don’t need to know, we’d have our heads stuffed full of redundant knowledge, and would struggle to find time to learn, or head-space to store, things that are useful now.

 

TBH, I ‘contract out’ a lot more domestic tasks now than I used to for several reasons: 

 

- I’ve always hated working at height, and won’t do it any more;

 

- I’ve always found anything to do with plumbing an annoying, frustrating, back-ache and sore arms inducing process, so now avoid doing it;

 

- plastering, tiling, and carpet fitting were always well beyond me, so my attempts came out terrible;

 

- decorating seems to take me a lot longer than it used to, blooming ages in fact, so I’d rather save up to get the big job (hall, stairs and landings of our three-storey house) done, and use my time doing something I enjoy instead.

 

The other thought is that the “DIY Era”, when every man was expected to be Jack of all trades around the house has actually been quite short-lived. If you go back to say 1900, most people lived in pretty basic housing that didn’t require the skills of ten trades to care for, and worked all the hours god sent at their own trade, and growing vegetables and keeping few chickens, so didn’t do lots of DIY in the modern sense, and “posh people” paid someone else. DIY big-time is largely a post-WW2 phenomenon.

 

Appliances designed to be un-fixable, or for which parts are unobtainable, do really annoy me, because I actually quite enjoy fixing such things. Dyson hoovers ……. Perfectly repairable as long as you’ve got a set of star-bit screwdrivers, but they won’t supply components!!!

 

It’ll be interesting to see what my youngest son and daughter can and can’t do when they get to DIY age.

 

 

 

 

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, SR71 said:

 

That said, carpet fitters and plasterers do their job ten times better and faster than I could and are well worth the money!

 

They have the right tools for the job and you can't justify the cost for just one job, and they have have only acquired their skill through years of experience.  

[BR traction instructor]

We go for a middle of the road approach:

 

for advanced appliances such as car, TV, washing machine, microwave etc we attempt to get hold of a well engineered brand with higher grade components, even if it means paying more for them.

 

for car & house I’m quite prepared to perform routine maintenance e.g. changing brake pads, oil, filters etc, or else decorate house, replace scaled bricks, change the aerial etc…but always summon an expert for gas/electrical work

 

with model railways I keep my hand in with etched kit construction, have no problems with plastic kits, usually upgrade RTR stuff to fit in with the others and would scratchbuild if necessary.

 

Can’t do everything but maintain a good 50/50 approach.

 

BeRTIe

Edited January 20, 2022 by BR traction instructor

[Hobby]

2 hours ago, Rivercider said:

I did woodwork and metalwork at school for a couple of years, but never got on with it, probably as I did not have confidence to get stuck in, being afraid of making mistakes.

My dad was not a very practical man, but I learned a few basic DIY skills, I can change a plug, assemble flat pack furniture, and quite enjoy gloss and emulsion painting

 

 

That just about summarises me as well other than my Dad was very good at woodwork and I hate decorating, though I can do it at a push!

 

1 hour ago, SR71 said:

That said, carpet fitters and plasterers do their job ten times better and faster than I could and are well worth the money!

 

Too right! I've laid a few carpets over time but the speed and accuracy carpet fitters work to always reminds me that I should pay them to do it, not try it myself!

 

I agree with Andy H that skill sets needed have changed over time with electronics coming more to the fore, but I'd also agree with Derick that we do need more basic training on the basics of engineering/woodwork, etc..

[Michael Hodgson]

10 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Appliances designed to be un-fixable, or for which parts are unobtainable, do really annoy me, because I actually quite enjoy fixing such things. Dyson hoovers ……. Perfectly repairable as long as you’ve got a set of star-bit screwdrivers, but they won’t supply components!!!

 

I resent waste.

 

I suspect the real reason you get annoyed about that is that lack of components forces you to scrap a piece of equipment that is 95% in good condition but is useless without that other 5%. 

 

As for Torx screws, they were only introduced as a deliberate attempt to stop you doing you own repairs and promote further new sales.

 

It is a global environmental problem that we are recycling/sending to land fill rather than repairing manufactured products.  I can understand manufacturers not wanting to produce and distribute an enormous range of spares for something whose design has changed.  The problem is the protection given by IP rights that stops others from reproducing bits that are in demand.  I think 3d scanning and printing will in time become technically practical as a way of getting spares, but there must first be legislative changes to remove the excesses of IP obstacles.  

[Allegheny1600]

2 hours ago, SR71 said:

What drives me mad is paying professionals to do a job to a lower standard than I can manage. My house had new kitchen fitted by a named brand before I bought it. This is the first year in five that I've not had to have a significant part of it dismantled to repair something they had bodged.

 

That said, carpet fitters and plasterers do their job ten times better and faster than I could and are well worth the money!

Hear, hear!

At my last house, I needed a real professional builder (not a cowboy as weeded by from his quote) to put a pair of RSJs in to support the roof, thereby allowing the removal of the previous owners bodge.

I’m not a qualified electrician so I employed such to do the re-wire.

Similarly with a replacement gas boiler later.

Everything else, my wife and I did along with some family help.

 I can’t bring myself to mess around with cars but most electrical items, I will try and fix. I can lay bricks, tend the garden, clean the gutters, build decking etc. Flat pack furniture is an absolute doddle, I try to over engineer it’s so it will last or even be capable of being dismantled and rebuilt.

 

Why?

A. I don’t like to waste money but 

B. I take pride in what I do.

[Fat Controller]

Part of the decline in practical skills I believe, can be attributed to families being more dispersed. In my generation (born mid-1950s), there were usually grand-parents or other relations living close-by. They could show youngsters how to do all sorts of useful things, from making pastry to soldering; they had time (and the case of my grandparents, patience) to show them how to do things. Parents had limited spare time, and the pressure of getting food on the table.

[BR traction instructor]

We’re trying to limit risk of unnecessary expense/unreliability with our approach to switching to an all electric car. I’ve always purchased a new Volkswagen Golf or Polo, run it for 10 years and then purchased the next. This has worked well without exception and we’ve never been stuck at the side of the road. Waiting until 2025 for the ID2 Polo equivalent gives them chance to debug the ID3 and hopefully get a similar reliability built into the ID2 that I’ve experienced with their diesel models over the years. It means running our current one until it is 13 years old but we’re keeping it maintained.

 

Trying to limit waste and get many years use out of well engineered products.

 

BeRTIe

[F-UnitMad]

35 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

decorating seems to take me a lot longer than it used to, blooming ages in fact, so I’d rather save up to get the big job (hall, stairs and landings of our three-storey house) done, and use my time doing something I enjoy instead.

 

As a Painter & Decorator I rely on people not doing it themselves!!

Hall stairs & landing is a common job for me, even from those who do usually do their own decorating, as either they haven't got ladders and/or don't fancy working at height.

 

[Nearholmer]

Are you nearby? I need a quote.

[30801]

9 minutes ago, F-UnitMad said:

As a Painter & Decorator I rely on people not doing it themselves!!

Hall stairs & landing is a common job for me, even from those who do usually do their own decorating, as either they haven't got ladders and/or don't fancy working at height.

 

I'm quite happy to paint up the stairs. If you could do the carpet for me that would be grand.

[TheQ]

School metalwork, woodwork, rural studies aka agriculture / horticulture and gardening.. Though I changed schools so they weren't taken to O grade as the following school didn't do those subjects.

 

I can do most things, 

Worked at Bacton gas works changing 1000psi pipe connections and checking them after, so home lines would not be a problem.. If I had to..  I have replaced the gas lines on the Motorboat though.

My trade is electronics and electrical for 40 + years up to 50,000 volts and effectively unlimited current.

Built a small sailing boat,

Rebuilt a mobile home, fitted it with double glazing, and built a 63ft shed for railway modelling..

Built a computer by soldering chips on a board back 1979-80,

Rebuilt a car engine.. just picked up the manual and got on with it.. Does anyone else remember when the Haynes manual didn't have ten pages of don't drink the antifreeze / battery acid / brake fluid?

 

I wasn't taught any of the above by parent's, though I was encouraged to make things.. Right from Airfix days.

 

Sadly children seem to be uninterested in making things, without getting used to using your hands they aren't going to move onto more technical subjects. I'm frequently amazed at what the youngsters (less than 40) can't / Don't want to do, 

 

[hayfield]

I think some are missing the point, I am not talking about people taking on specialist jobs, as I said I employ tradesmen for the jobs that require their skills, especially when either safety is concerned or the level of finish required is higher that what can be done by oneself, of a person is time poor.

 

There are always exceptions my new neighbours in their 20's, he has a track car and is always working on it and she is into wood turning. They both designed and built their lean-to garage including roof lights and living roof. But for the younger generation this is an exception

 

The comment on the world has moved on and we no longer need the old trades is well off the mark, if anything these old trades are highly sought after, we still need these skills as not everything can be done by machine

 

Plus now there seems a generation growing up not being able to cook, living off convenience food

[Mallard60022]

I used  to really enjoy all decorating, bar Wallpapering. That was popular in the 80s. Fortunately herself loved Papering and hated Painting.

However I was only really available to do that during the Summer Holidays from School. It also involved the situation where England could win at Cricket, in Test matches, as that was my inspiration whilst listening on the Radio. Thus I didn't do a lot of decorating. 

When we moved north after retiring from FT work in 2003, I decorated the whole of our new House as I had the time and had given up on Cricket. It included the Hall and Landing. Some I was able to do before we moved most of the Furniture in. By 2014 I was knackered and that's been it bar some small projects. 

I suppose what has happened is I have lost the ability to do stuff as have loads of Boomers who are the bulge in the population just now.

Also the younger generation(s) are less inclined to own their house/property and /or do lack skills that used to be widespread. Today, if something breaks 'you' chuck it and replace it. Having said that my youngest lad went from almost zero skills at 20 to damn good DIY person, due mainly to You Tube; sadly he still doesn't use tape to edge paintwork......

I reckon it is more a case of I/we don't need to do stuff and someone else can (if I can afford to employ them). Society evolves. However, if people want to do stuff, they can access info on line.

P

 

 

[Mallard60022]

5 minutes ago, hayfield said:

I think some are missing the point, I am not talking about people taking on specialist jobs, as I said I employ tradesmen for the jobs that require their skills, especially when either safety is concerned or the level of finish required is higher that what can be done by oneself, of a person is time poor.

 

There are always exceptions my new neighbours in their 20's, he has a track car and is always working on it and she is into wood turning. They both designed and built their lean-to garage including roof lights and living roof. But for the younger generation this is an exception

 

The comment on the world has moved on and we no longer need the old trades is well off the mark, if anything these old trades are highly sought after, we still need these skills as not everything can be done by machine

 

Plus now there seems a generation growing up not being able to cook, living off convenience food

Oh ouch; huge generalisation mate, except in a family these days people are having to work work work and if they can't then, ouch. Also younger folk really like to do active things like Gym and  stretching themselves into very strange positions. Those things were not around in the 'good old days'. Society and demographic has changed; as has it always has, and not always for the better?

 

P

Edited January 20, 2022 by Mallard60022

[ejstubbs]

4 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

I used  to really enjoy all decorating, bar Wallpapering. That was popular in the 80s. Fortunately herself loved Papering and hated Painting.

However I was only really available to do that during the Summer Holidays from School. It also involved the situation where England could win at Cricket, in Test matches, as that was my inspiration whilst listening on the Radio. Thus I didn't do a lot of decorating.

 

Humanity truly is in terminal decline if the fundamental skill of doing DIY while listening to Test Match Special is disappearing!