Are we turning into a can't do society ?

[Reorte]

37 minutes ago, rocor said:

 

"Something to be avoided" is practically the definition of a chore.

I disagree. A chore is just a routine task that needs doing, and I get a quiet satisfaction in doing them myself before going off and doing something I more conventionally want to do. Not without limits of course - I'm more than happy to use a vacuum cleaner, but there's no way in hell I'll ever get a robot one (even if it was practical for my house).

 

I find the idea of not doing anything for yourself, being utterly dependent on machines, yet another thing that ticks the "very depressing" box.

[Wheatley]

I'm with Nearhomer. I left school in 1985, boys were taught metalwork and woodwork and (up the point where they all closed in our final year) been expected to go down the pit, join the forces or work in warehousing or glassmaking which were the local industries. Top set were expected to go to uni but were on our own as to how we actually got there. Girls were expected to stay at home and cook/have babies or work in Asda or one of two local shirt factories and were taught accordingly. We had two computers between 1600 students. 

 

Thirty odd years on all those industries are gone. My lad is taught coding, product design and  other subjects which didn't exist when I was learning how to make book ends out of bits of old desk. Meanwhile I can just about work a phone. 

Edited January 20, 2022 by Wheatley

[rocor]

2 hours ago, Hroth said:

 

There will probably be new "vocational" training schemes launched that will fizzle out as all the previous ones did, mainly benefitting training providers and qualifications generators for low level qualifications in the so-called service industries.  Back in the early 90s, the government of the day tried out a high level training scheme, the High Technology National Training scheme (HTNT) to provide training and qualifications at what might be called Level 5/7 skills.  It didn't last long as it was expensive, and the "skills" offered turned out to be not very useful.  I was at a bit of a loose end at that time and got onto an HTNT sponsored course for a MSc in Technology Management, which was as much use as a chocolate teapot.

 

 

There are too few, and they're outweighed by the numbers of poor ones.

 

The problem is that we can train people in all sorts of skills, but there have to be industries that they can be employed in. As we have killed off a large proportion of our manufacturing base by concentrating on providing non-manufacturing "services" at different levels, there needs to be a change in approach by government to reinvigorate manufacturing and support the training of technical  workers to support such a move.

 

How that is to be done in the present financial climate, with a semi-corrupt political class in charge is impossible to say.

 

I think all the above has been said before, by people more knowledgable than myself, but I just thought I'd like to get it off my chest!

 

 

 

 

Manufacturing may well start to return to the UK in time. Though, it probably will not result in the employment of the numerous people that it did in the past.

 

Economics was in a large part responsible for the offshoring of much manufacturing, and the cost of indigenous labour in comparison to that from the far east provided a major factor of that.

 

As higher (smarter) levels of automation become available to industrial production, the advantages of a low labour cost then diminish, and the logistics of having products produced near to their final markets increases.

 

At the present time, there is somewhere in the region of 80% of the UK’s population employed in the services sector of the economy. How much of this employment, that does not require a direct human hands-on approach, and thus could be susceptible to offshoring or automation?

[Kickstart]

I was at secondary school in the 1980s mostly. We were taught the basics of a lathe / milling machine / etc, but also cooking and sewing (which they called home economics).

 

If I need to I can paint, but it brings back stressful memories so I would rather leave things needing painting than do it myself. It is unlikely to be a skill that I need to employ in an emergency!

 

One factor for me is that basic tech training aids in a mechanical understanding (as do a lot of traditional toys - whether Lego, modelling or any number of other things). These skills are needed for so many things in life that they are close to essential, and a kind of logic that will apply to many tasks.

I can do a lot of car and bike things, and largely would prefer to spend the time doing this than spending much the same time dropping off and picking up a vehicle for someone else to do it. People might not want to do wheel changes on a car for a job, but I would massively prefer to do that at the side of the road than wait for a AA / RAC / etc van in a dodgy location whatever the weather (not long ago I surprised a young guy when I changed his wheel for him as he didn't know how to - even more so when I passed him a lump of broken spring that had caused the flat tyre!).

All the best

Katy

[33C]

I have always thought that a nation can only call itself a nation IF, in desperate times, it can be self-sufficient within its own borders. Can ANY nation truly say that? (That is feed, clothe, shelter, defend.)

[doilum]

It is impossible to acquire any practical skills if you have a phone in your hand for most of your waking hours. 

Edited January 20, 2022 by doilum

[Steven B]

17 hours ago, hayfield said:

It seems to me many now want everything done for them. Is it they are leaving school without being taught basic life skills, which includes cooking !!!

 

 

How many boys who left school in the 1950-70s were taught to cook? Probably a similar number to the number of girls who did woodwork or metalwork.

 

Today the boys do textiles & cooking, and the girls do metal and woodwork. Add in all the new technology to learn such as programming, 3d printing and is it any wonder children aren't being taught how to sharpen a lathe tool? There's not enough hours in the school year to do it. Even when metalwork was taught in more detail at school, you'd still need to go out and complete an apprenticeship - I'm guessing very few school leavers were put in front of a lathe or mill on their first day in work.

 

The DIY comments here also make me chuckle - I'd love to know if anyone learnt to hang wallpaper at school. I'm guessing the majority who can do it learnt from a friend or parent - little different to what many on here could do with their children and grand-children should they feel that the education system is lacking.

 

A practical education isn't everything. My Dad's a time served pattern maker - there's little he can't make from a chunk of wood and a few basic hand-tools but his six year old granddaughter is significantly better with a mobile phone.

 

Steven B.

Edited January 20, 2022 by Steven B

[colin smith]

4 hours ago, TheQ said:

Sadly children seem to be uninterested in making things, without getting used to using your hands they aren't going to move onto more technical subjects. I'm frequently amazed at what the youngsters (less than 40) can't / Don't want to do, 

 

On the other hand, there are many things children/young people can do that the older generation can't. The problem is that what they can do is often rather bewildering to the older generation and so is disparaged and even seen in a negative light. It's useful to compare this thread with the comments about Sam's Trains on the YouTube thread and the thread on Francis Bourgeois. In both examples you see young people who have made something that, at least in terms of audience and monetisation, older people just couldn't do. They couldn't do it partly because they don't know how to and partly because they don't see the value in doing it.

 

It's something I've seen in the book/publishing world. The way books are written is vastly different from the advice I was first given at at age seventeen  (pencil first drafts? typewriters? gone with the dodo) the way authors network with each other and with their readers is vastly different. The relationship between author and publisher (assuming they don't self-publish) is vastly different. The way books are marketed is vastly different. And most significantly, in my view, the very nature of what a book can be, thanks to digitisation and the internet, has barely been investigated because most writers have had to adapt to the information super-highway rather than being shaped by it from birth.

 

Of all the skills children need to be taught, I would say practical skills are some way down the list. More important are skills such as how to engage with people online and build social networks, how to maintain (and end) relationships in an online world, how to discriminate between information that's true and information that's false, how to understand their own biases, to understand how mass media affects personal development, how to look and how to listen, how to not judge and how to ignore the judgement of others. How to be and how to be happy.

[Michael Hodgson]

4 hours ago, F-UnitMad said:

As a Painter & Decorator I rely on people not doing it themselves!!

Hall stairs & landing is a common job for me, even from those who do usually do their own decorating, as either they haven't got ladders and/or don't fancy working at height.

 

As it happens I'd much rather paint/paper the hall landing and stairs than the other rooms.  The thing about the other rooms is that there is a hell of a lot of heavy furniture and other stuff that has to be shifted out of the way before I start and it all has to be shifted back again afterwards - and I have to clear somewhere else to put it all before I can even do that!   There's a lot less to shift to do the staircase.  

 

But I don't think you're going to lose much business because of that issue.

 

The decorating is easy - it's the preparation and the cleaning of paint brushes etc afterwards that I dislike.

 

 

[colin smith]

4 hours ago, Reorte said:

everything's fitted with a moulded plug for example

 

I haven't had to fit a plug in decades. On the other hand, buying an item that relies on mains electricity and it not having a plug was always silly. You wouldn't expect to buy a car and then fit your own tyres would you?

[Nearholmer]

16 minutes ago, 33C said:

Can ANY nation truly say that? (That is feed, clothe, shelter, defend.)

Only very big ones, with access to vast stores of natural resources, such as the US and China, and there may be niche raw materials that even they can’t dig-up from home soil; and, really poor ones that operate at bare subsistence level from meagre natural resources (and they probably couldn’t defend themselves against a ‘biggie’).

 

Great Britain achieved its brief period of greatness by the age-old method of colonising bits of far away places, and exploiting their natural resources, empire, in short. We haven’t been self-sufficient from within these shores for a couple of millennia at least, although probably could have subsisted on internal resources if necessary until maybe C17th/18th. It would be interesting to know what size of population Britain could support without any imports if we really tried …… we might just be able to maintain present numbers, but we’d have to

put every square inch under the plough, and have a subsistence diet. Life would be very different if we imported nothing!

[rocor]

35 minutes ago, Reorte said:

I disagree. A chore is just a routine task that needs doing, and I get a quiet satisfaction in doing them myself before going off and doing something I more conventionally want to do. Not without limits of course - I'm more than happy to use a vacuum cleaner, but there's no way in hell I'll ever get a robot one (even if it was practical for my house).

 

I find the idea of not doing anything for yourself, being utterly dependent on machines, yet another thing that ticks the "very depressing" box.

 

I was going to post that gaining quiet satisfaction from doing a task, somewhat dilutes its definition of being a chore.

 

Then looked up the definition of chore:  A routine task, especially a household one.

 

Inherent tedium, is not among the essential requirements of a chore being a chore. 

 

So then, "Something to be avoided", definition of a tedious chore.

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Key word there.

 

Salesman. You do realise he'll be under commission to sell you the extras? Just like retailers asking you about things like guarantees and insurance. It's compulsory for them to ask, but he gets a percentage to add to his meagre wages.

 

If someone is spending "four figures" on something like recliners then he probably thinks they want proper service as they obviously aren't buying stuff from the bargain shop.

 

 

DIYers? Hospital wards have been full of them for decades since the craze started. It's been even worse since Lockdown.

 

 

 

 

Jason

 

Jason

 

Why do you immediately jump to the conclusion the chap is on meager wages ? And after 50 years being in sales  I appreciate what goes on. At a different furniture shop 3-4 years ago we spent similar sums on 2 sofas which included delivery, but I was expected to unwrap them and attach the feet/pads,  and this was more of a warehouse style.

 

On large items when not paying cut prices, usually I would expect delivery included, let's face it few of us have the transport to take these larger items home !! Anyway they are being built and have to be delivered anyway.

 

I see you don't like DIY'ers most manage to stay well away from hospitals, and in some instances have to correct the failings of so called trades people.

 

Often "Service" costs little, its just the attitude towards customers and should be the same irrespective of value 

[rocor]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

Only very big ones, with access to vast stores of natural resources, such as the US and China, and there may be niche raw materials that even they can’t dig-up from home soil; and, really poor ones that operate at bare subsistence level from meagre natural resources (and they probably couldn’t defend themselves against a ‘biggie’).

 

Great Britain achieved its brief period of greatness by the age-old method of colonising bits of far away places, and exploiting their natural resources, empire, in short. We haven’t been self-sufficient from within these shores for a couple of millennia at least, although probably could have subsisted on internal resources if necessary until maybe C17th/18th. It would be interesting to know what size of population Britain could support without any imports if we really tried …… we might just be able to maintain present numbers, but we’d have to

put every square inch under the plough, and have a subsistence diet. Life would be very different if we imported nothing!

 

In such an emergency, I don't think ploughs would have a lot to do with the solution to the food problem.

 

 

Edited January 20, 2022 by rocor

[Nearholmer]

I thought for a minute that you were suggesting that we would need to “depend upon one another”.

 

Love thy neighbour, with a nice gravy, Yorkshire pudding, and roast potatoes.

[Dunsignalling]

However it started, the lack of skills teaching nowadays is largely proportionate to a lack of demand for the skills themselves.

 

The "medieval" stuff (and steam technology) will be kept alive by enthusiasts and most of the industrial ones will be revived in updated form if it becomes necessary, 

 

Much has changed in terms of both H&S and Environmental concerns since they declined in the UK.

 

John

Edited January 20, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[Reorte]

3 minutes ago, rocor said:

 

In such an emergency, I don't think ploughs would have a lot to do with the solution to the food problem.

 

Looks even less sustainable - just what energy requirements does that need? How much reliance on artificial heat and light?

 

For low-damage sustainability we need to take some big steps backwards in agriculture. Modern intensive agriculture is not a good thing at all, in any form. There can still be modern contributions to returning to less intensive agriculture. Of course the big problem is that that change would be even further from being able to feed everyone - we're overpopulated.

[hayfield]

50 minutes ago, Steven B said:

 

 

How many boys who left school in the 1950-70s were taught to cook? Probably a similar number to the number of girls who did woodwork or metalwork.

 

Today the boys do textiles & cooking, and the girls do metal and woodwork. Add in all the new technology to learn such as programming, 3d printing and is it any wonder children aren't being taught how to sharpen a lathe tool? There's not enough hours in the school year to do it. Even when metalwork was taught in more detail at school, you'd still need to go out and complete an apprenticeship - I'm guessing very few school leavers were put in front of a lathe or mill on their first day in work.

 

The DIY comments here also make me chuckle - I'd love to know if anyone learnt to hang wallpaper at school. I'm guessing the majority who can do it learnt from a friend or parent - little different to what many on here could do with their children and grand-children should they feel that the education system is lacking.

 

A practical education isn't everything. My Dad's a time served pattern maker - there's little he can't make from a chunk of wood and a few basic hand-tools but his six year old granddaughter is significantly better with a mobile phone.

 

Steven B.

 

Steven

 

Whilst at school I was not taught paper hanging, however I was taught very basic methods of making things giving me the ability to have the confidence to tackle many things practicable that would never had been on the school curriculum. At an after school slot car club, I was shown how to make slot car track and remember buying a Revel Chaparral car kit, which went like the wind (far faster than early Scalextric

 

I do under stand that they learn things much newer than we did, but sometimes at the expense of other areas. At my last job in retail I was also tasked to do the minor maintenance. in that doing early simple fixes often stopped the fault developing into a more costly repair. As it happened it was an experiment that was rolled out into other sites. But the younger staff often wondered how I did what was a simple task. The skill in most cases was to what needed doing rather than the action its self, thinking through the problem.   

[33C]

I hear constantly that the younger generation are better at modern technology. I would only be impressed if they could actually repair this stuff themselves. My mantra is, it's broken/not working. I'll take it apart and have a look as it cannot get any more broken. Unless on warranty, what's to lose? Parts can be a problem but not insurmountable. 90% of devices I've tinkered with have stopped working due to dirt and lots of it, from constantly being handled, and a light clean is usually all that is required, yet the default setting is panic, terror and an emergency purchase of a new model. E.g. 1 hour of time, soft toothbrush, cotton bud, furniture polish. = £600- £1000 new purchase. Trouble is it's usually the other way round.......

[Nearholmer]

We import about half of our food, but don’t use the land we have either completely, or to maximum nutritional efficiency in terms of the crops we do grow, so I think that by a combination of “going backwards” to crops that work well in our climate/weather/soils, and a far more restricted and, crucially, seasonal diet, plus newly-devised clever stuff, we could support a lot more than half the population, maybe even all of it, so we might not be as ‘overpopulated’ as present methods/consumption-habits make it appear.

 

You’d have to get used to a lot of oats and beans, endless cabbages, hardly any meat (pigs are good for multi-layered agriculture though), lots of root-vegetable stews, restricted dairy produce, plenty of eggs. And, a lot fewer calories overall. Think Dig for Victory.

 

The other thing is fuel. We might struggle to be self-sufficient in having enough to keep warm, even after cars were banned on Day 1.

 

Is this all OT at all?

 

 

[Reorte]

6 minutes ago, 33C said:

I hear constantly that the younger generation are better at modern technology. I would only be impressed if they could actually repair this stuff themselves.

When it comes to technology (well digital electronic technology) what can break can be in the software as well as the hardware. They might well be poor if a fix involved getting the soldering iron out, but most of it's so fine it's not that likely that that'll be of much use (there are some exceptions), but plenty of those younger generations will be reasonably competent at sorting out software issues.

 

I don't believe such skills should be in replacement of older basic ones, but conceptually they're not really all that different. And like many basic skills they can be obvious and simple once you know how and look confusing and intimidating and impressive when you don't.

There's a reason the image of parents calling their kids when their computer doesn't do what they expect has become a stereotype.

Edited January 20, 2022 by Reorte

[colin smith]

4 minutes ago, 33C said:

I hear constantly that the younger generation are better at modern technology. I would only be impressed if they could actually repair this stuff themselves. My mantra is, it's broken/not working. I'll take it apart and have a look as it cannot get any more broken. Unless on warranty, what's to lose? Parts can be a problem but not insurmountable. 90% of devices I've tinkered with have stopped working due to dirt and lots of it, from constantly being handled, and a light clean is usually all that is required, yet the default setting is panic, terror and an emergency purchase of a new model. E.g. 1 hour of time, soft toothbrush, cotton bud, furniture polish. = £600- £1000 new purchase. Trouble is it's usually the other way round.......

 

They are better at using it and maximising its potential. Plus you're thinking solely in terms of the physical object and its parts which are unimportant in a world where technology is digital. I can't take Facebook apart or fix it when it's broken, but I have learnt how to use it in ways that are helpful and beneficial to me. 

[33C]

1 minute ago, Reorte said:

When it comes to technology (well digital electronic technology) what can break can be in the software as well as the hardware. They might well be poor if a fix involved getting the soldering iron out, but most of it's so fine it's not that likely that that'll be of much use (there are some exceptions), but plenty will be reasonably competent at sorting out software issues.

 

I don't believe such skills should be in replacement of older basic ones, but conceptually they're not really all that different. And like many basic skills they can be obvious and simple once you know how and look confusing and intimidating and impressive when you don't.

I agree 100%, software sends me to sleep, literally. 

[Michael Hodgson]

4 hours ago, Captain Kernow said:

What horrified me recently was a piece on Radio 4 that mentioned a trend towards expecting to be able to order whatever you want and a matching expectation that it will be delivered within minutes to your front door, particularly food.

 

The person quoted in the example had apparently expressed a complete and utter disinterest in the location of and range available in their local supermarkets, because of the ubiquity (in London, admittedly) of fast food outlets that deliver.

 

I think this is definitely a minority at the moment, however, as many folk still actually enjoy the process of cooking, but equally I suspect many find themselves having to rely on 'ready meals' and other highly processed food, due to the constraints of domestic budget, available time etc.

 

There are a lot of people know simply didn't (and some who still don't) know how to cook.

 

It was an implied term in the contract of marriage that the husband is the breadwinner and the wife does the housework, and cooking was definitely seen as "women's work"; if a man even knew how to cook his own dinner questions others might question his virility!  

But a lot of it is down to economics.  Eating in restaurants may be too expensive for most people, though depending what type of food you go for, take-aways and the like needn't be prohibitive.  People in certain jobs have always had to eat out - a travelling salesman just didn't have the option of cooking for himself even if he wanted to, and in some jobs of course you can charge up-market dining to expenses (though it might be a case of "bring your own booze").

Many men worked in factories which generally had a canteen which supplied basic but perfectly adequate hot meals at an affordable price.  No need for such a worker to cook at home.

 

On the other hand when everybody had do a spell in the armed forces, men had to learn at least some of the basics as part of survival training (... first catch your dinner).  Of course nowadays, maybe they just need to teach the troops how to rob a supermarket?

 

I used to use ready meals some of the time when I was working simply because I was too knackered to cook when I got home work.  I wouldn't say I enjoy the process of cooking but I do it because I much prefer proper food.

 

One of the reasons that some people use ready meals is disability - one of the questions on the PIPs form is whether or not you are able to prepare your own meals.   Putting something in the microwave is all that some people can manage, and some ranges are even marketed specially towards the elderly & infirm.

 

[rocor]

35 minutes ago, Reorte said:

 

Looks even less sustainable - just what energy requirements does that need? How much reliance on artificial heat and light?

 

For low-damage sustainability we need to take some big steps backwards in agriculture. Modern intensive agriculture is not a good thing at all, in any form. There can still be modern contributions to returning to less intensive agriculture. Of course the big problem is that that change would be even further from being able to feed everyone - we're overpopulated.

 

The hypothetical situation that was postulated by Nearhohner was that we had entered into a situation whereas, as a nation, we had to be totally self-reliant, such as in the case of the second world war, but much more intensively so.

 

What could the scenario be for this? Maybe a new virus, one so virulent and lethal that the country would need to be totally cut off from the rest of the World for its own protection.

 

For the increase in energy production, that would be urgently required, Nuclear would be the likely solution. These would be factory built, small reactors that could be rapidly produced to an existing design (those used in nuclear submarines). Then these would be installed throughout the country. As for the NIMBY opposition. That would not exist, because they would all be in internment camps, after all this is a national emergency.