Re-watched Sink the Bismarck! (1960) again and I'm not sure if I like it as much as I used to.

[The Johnster]

An Irish friend of mine, now sadly passed on but old enough to remember the 'Emergency' in the ROI of his childhood in Cork, told the story of one afternoon wandering into the bar of the pub his parents ran at the time, to see a group of men in the corner who were unlike any he had seen before.  Their expressions haunted him, and unlike the normal lively crowd they sat hunched and silent, staring into their beers with an air of hopelessness and despair.  'Who are they?' the little boy asked, and his mother replied 'They are sailors from the war'. 

 

He never found out more about them, and they'd gone by the evening when he returned to the bar.  They affected him profoundly, though, and he never forgot them.  They might have been British, or any of the other nations including neutrals, or even U-boat men, but they'd been picked up by Irish fishermen and rescued.  They looked, he said, as if they had been to hell and not come back; the pictures they must have seen inside their eyelids when they closed their eyes were beyond our ability to understand.  And, of course, rescue was not the end of their story; once they'd been repatriated, they would have do go out and do it all over again,

 

In late 1943 and most of 1944, father was 2nd officer on a coasting tanker sailing out of Valetta with avgas and following the Allied advance up the Adriatic coast of Italy as airfields were established.  It was, he said, the most relaxing ship he was on during the hostilites, because the nature of the cargo meant that any hit would have been like turning off a light switch.  Accustomed to sleeping fully clothed with boots on in case the ship had to be hurriedly abandoned, on this little tanker everybody slept soundly and comfortably in pyjamas.  Accepting that there would be nothing to be done in an emergency, they adopted a grim fatalism ceased worrying about it and he remembers the time fondly; the weather was good, they had plenty of fresh food, and for some reason an unlimited supply of Guiness.

 

This highlighted the constant relentless fear that all merchant sailors suffered for the duration, the knowledge that at any moment a torpedo could hit with no warning and you would suffer the same horrible fate that you had seen scores of ships and hundreds of men suffer already.  If it happened and you survived, that was no help, it just meant that your luck was closer to running out. 

[chris p bacon]

51 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

because the nature of the cargo meant that any hit would have been like turning off a light switch

 

I've picked up on that sentence as it relates to a story Dad told of someone he met when in the camp.  

 

When the merchantment were moved to Germany, they built their own camp adjacent to an existing RN one.  As the war progressed the camp guards would allow some from each camp to mix when they foraged for firewood and dad got friendly with a chap from the RN camp. As they talked he asked dad what sort of ship he was on and the reply was 'Tanker' to which the RN chap said "You're mad, you'd never get me on one of those , they're like a floating bomb" Dad asked what he was on and the reply was "X-sub" not having a clue what one of those was, he asked what he'd actually done and the reply was "I helped put a mine on the bottom of Tirpitz"  He was Donald Cameron VC.

Dad said he was very unassuming and thought everyone else was much braver than he. They kept in touch for a while after the war, Dad said that when he read the story of the XSubs he couldn't imagine how Cameron (and others) could be so calm after what they went through.

 

[The Johnster]

I think Cameron had probably already mastered being calm; you don't get VCs with cornflake packets.  The subs were built at Swindon, btw...

 

I always think of the Italian minisub attacks at Gibraltar and Alexandria when I hear people ridiculing the courage of their forces; these 'manned torpedo' attacks (the Japanese did some as well) must have taken a particular sort of person!  The Japanese developed their manned torpedoes into the 'kai ten' suicide missions. 

 

Another sobering thought about the enemy is that the U-boat service suffered the highest casualty rate of all combatants towards the end of the hostilities, 75% losses.  The Kame Kaze were unable to match this, and they intended a one-way trip; some 45% of them survived the war as a result of mechanical failures causing them to return to base or not being called on to make the ultimate sacrifice because the war ended first. 

 

I've always considered myself to be a pacifisit, but I suppose, had it been neccessary, I would have served in a war; the moral aspect of defeating fascism might even have persuaded me to volunteer in 1939.  But I cannot imagine myself ever doing anything that required that level of coolness and nerve, and in fact suspect that you'd have found me hiding at the back behind something big most of the time.  Your duty is your duty, and forces discipline is based on your being more scared of your officers than the enemy, but I'm fairly sure I'd have been keeping my head down and trying to avoid the worst of it.  My dad applied to be a fighter pilot but was rejected on eyesight and medical grounds, which probably saved his life; very few of the original volunteers survived the war and most were dead before the Battle of Britain.  I think I'd have wanted to be somewhere that I could get hold of a weapon, the bigger the better, though. to have a chance of fighting back; the feeling of being defenceless on a merchant ship must have been awful, as must have been being at home in an air raid.

[alastairq]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

they had plenty of fresh food, and for some reason an unlimited supply of Guinness.

Now, I may be off the mark here but..[I was a Navigating Apprentice, and Uncert 3rd officer, with BP tankers in the late 1960's/early 1970's]............but something at the back of my mind reminds me that Guiness was often used to offset the effects of the tank fumes? Especially on ''Product Carriers?''

Mind, I got myself poisoned and hospitalised in Tobruk, after sniffing far too many fumes from Kirkuk crude, which we carried a lot...Suez being closed all the time I was at sea...and many trips were from the eastern Med to Italy/France, etc, loading crude oil from either Tripoli [Lebanon] or Banias [Syria]

[peach james]

The seamen of the MN get a lot of my respect:

That's "Pop" (Harold) Collin's Certificate of Continuous Discharge.  My Great Grandfather.  Yes, SS Magellan was torpedo'd, and sunk.  He rowed 83 NM to shore...and that was only 1 of the little adventures he had in the 1st go around.  
 

It makes MY "wartime" service look like a @#$@#$ joke.

PO2 James Powell, SWACM, CD      RCN (Retired)

[Downendian]

1 hour ago, chris p bacon said:

 

I've picked up on that sentence as it relates to a story Dad told of someone he met when in the camp.  

 

When the merchantment were moved to Germany, they built their own camp adjacent to an existing RN one.  As the war progressed the camp guards would allow some from each camp to mix when they foraged for firewood and dad got friendly with a chap from the RN camp. As they talked he asked dad what sort of ship he was on and the reply was 'Tanker' to which the RN chap said "You're mad, you'd never get me on one of those , they're like a floating bomb" Dad asked what he was on and the reply was "X-sub" not having a clue what one of those was, he asked what he'd actually done and the reply was "I helped put a mine on the bottom of Tirpitz"  He was Donald Cameron VC.

Dad said he was very unassuming and thought everyone else was much braver than he. They kept in touch for a while after the war, Dad said that when he read the story of the XSubs he couldn't imagine how Cameron (and others) could be so calm after what they went through.

 

I found the whole story of the demise of Tirpitz just as enthralling through acts of bravery of the RN and RAF as that of the destruction of Bismarck and equally tragic. First the blocking of the Normandie dock at St Nazaire by HMS Campbeltown -( a complete mystery as to why this has not been a war movie epic), to prevent Tirpitz making Atlantic sorties. Second to the immense efforts of the RAF bombings by 617 and 9 Squadrons amongst others and including the X sub raids mentioned here. All operations that are staggering in the acts of courage committed by our services. We owe them our liberty and the peace it brought. 

[chris p bacon]

15 minutes ago, Downendian said:

First the blocking of the Normandie dock at St Nazaire by HMS Campbeltown -( a complete mystery as to why this has not been a war movie epic)

 

I agree with you, although Jeremy Clarkson did make a good programme about the raid and the price paid.  

 

Clarkson also made a programme about PQ18 and his ex father in law who was a VC holder. He has many critics but his admiration of those that served cannot be disputed.

 

Edit to add that Cambeltown was the first Airfix ship kit I built after being told of the raid when with family in Penryn Nr falmouth where they set off from.

Edited January 30, 2022 by chris p bacon
extra info

[Andy Kirkham]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

I always think of the Italian minisub attacks at Gibraltar and Alexandria when I hear people ridiculing the courage of their forces; these 'manned torpedo' attacks (the Japanese did some as well) must have taken a particular sort of person!  The Japanese developed their manned torpedoes into the 'kai ten' suicide missions. 

 

 

A particularly audacious ploy was to create a secret base for the mini-sub operations inside a derelict vessel - the Olterra - which lay half-sunk in Algiceras harbour. Under the eyes of the Spanish authorities and British observers, the Italians worked to create a secret workshop inside the ship's cargo space and cut a sliding hatch below the waterline for the mini-subs to to come and go.

Edited January 30, 2022 by Andy Kirkham

[MarkC]

4 hours ago, JeremyC said:

Agree totally!

My maternal grandfather was an engineer in the Merchant Navy and went through both wars safely. His brother who was also an engineer was killed when his ship the 'SS Cairndhu' was torpedoed and sunk. His name is listed on the Tower Hill Memorial in London which commemorates the men and women of the Merchant and Fishing Fleets who died in both World Wars and have no known grave.

My nearest experience of wars was twice being on tankers sent into the Persion Gulf while it was a war zone. At the time there had been attacks on tankers in the region, but fortunately nothing happened to us. I still have some photos of one of the ships with large union flags painted on the main deck to identify our nationality.

My paternal grandfather was a Master in Clan Line - he had 3 ships torpedoed from under him, & sadly died of leukemia in 1946, so my grandmother didn't get a war widow's pension. He did, however, receive both the Lloyds War Medal and the OBE for his actions when a U-boat fired 2 torpedoes at his ship, but fortunately the Mate saw them & turned towards them whilst sounding the alarm. The U-boat surfaced & started firing at the ship with their (big) deck gun, but my grandfather steered straight at the sub, which eventually crash dived, leaving the gun crew on the surface. The only weapon board was a Webley revolver, which my grandfather kept in his uniform jacket pocket...

 

That story is in print in several books, as are a couple more mentions of him in Gordon Holman's excellent work "In Danger's Hour", which documents Clan Line ships' activities in WW2.

 

I too was in the Gulf during the Iran-Iraq war - I did 3 trips up to Kuwait on a reefer ship. Scary stuff - the Iranians were known to shoot up anything they wanted to...

[Andy Kirkham]

One marine occupation that must have been pretty hazardous in wartime is fishing, but there doesn't seem to be much online about the dangers that fishermen faced.

[Andy Kirkham]

<inadvertant duplication>One marine occupation that must have been pretty hazardous in wartime is fishing, but there doesn't seem to be much online about the dangers that fishermen faced.

Edited January 30, 2022 by Andy Kirkham

[Phil Bullock]

This post has prompted much recollection and reflection. Thank you to all who have added personal stories both first and second hand.

 

Merchantmen were certainly at permanent risk of a torpedo coming out of the blue and triggering something akin to Armageddon. Can I venture to suggest that the nearest equivalent in the armed forces was in bomber command once Nachtjaeger were equipped with Schrage Musik upwards firing cannons… unheralded death just came out of the night. At least naval surface ships had asdic and radar….

[Andy Kirkham]

47 minutes ago, Phil Bullock said:

Can I venture to suggest that the nearest equivalent in the armed forces was in bomber command once Nachtjaeger were equipped with Schrage Musik upwards firing cannons… unheralded death just came out of the night. At least naval surface ships had asdic and radar….

Well that's something I didn't know about. Introduced in 1943 and the Allies didn't realise what it was until the end of the war.

[Hroth]

58 minutes ago, Phil Bullock said:

Can I venture to suggest that the nearest equivalent in the armed forces was in bomber command once Nachtjaeger were equipped with Schrage Musik upwards firing cannons… unheralded death just came out of the night. At least naval surface ships had asdic and radar….

 

British aircraft manufacturers had experimented with the same concept in the early 30s, so it wasn't completely unknown

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vickers_Type_161

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westland_C.O.W._Gun_Fighter

 

Schrage Musik was frighteningly effective, but the German interception systems had technical limitations, otherwise even more bombers would have been blasted out of the sky. 

[The Johnster]

2 hours ago, Phil Bullock said:

This post has prompted much recollection and reflection. Thank you to all who have added personal stories both first and second hand.

 

Merchantmen were certainly at permanent risk of a torpedo coming out of the blue and triggering something akin to Armageddon. Can I venture to suggest that the nearest equivalent in the armed forces was in bomber command once Nachtjaeger were equipped with Schrage Musik upwards firing cannons… unheralded death just came out of the night. At least naval surface ships had asdic and radar….

 

The RN escorts did, but very few if any merchant vessels had radar and none had asdic.  In daylight you might see a periscope or a torpedo wake, but at night, forget it.

 

4 hours ago, Andy Kirkham said:

<inadvertant duplication>One marine occupation that must have been pretty hazardous in wartime is fishing, but there doesn't seem to be much online about the dangers that fishermen faced.

 

Very little fishing took place during the war, despite the food shortages.  Most fishing skippers  and crews were called up or volunteered for Naval service and many fishing boats were requisitioned for various purposes.  These included the Dunkirk evacuation and the 'Shetland Bus', and they were used for all sorts of clandestine operations by special forces and the intelligence services.  Many of the fishing grounds were unusable due to the extensive minefields in the North Sea, English Channel, and across the entrances to the Bristol Channel and Irish Sea. 

[OnTheBranchline]

On 29/01/2022 at 15:47, Ozexpatriate said:

The Trafalgar mythos. It might well have been true of British gunnery in the Napoleonic wars but was no substitute for accuracy by the 20th century.

Especially considering that the Admiralty spent a lot of time and money perfecting long range gunnery in general - to engage beyond the range of their guns.

 

What does Beatty do? Sail closer than he should and lets the Germans open fire first...

[OnTheBranchline]

3 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 

The RN escorts did, but very few if any merchant vessels had radar and none had asdic.  In daylight you might see a periscope or a torpedo wake, but at night, forget it.

 

 

Very little fishing took place during the war, despite the food shortages.  Most fishing skippers  and crews were called up or volunteered for Naval service and many fishing boats were requisitioned for various purposes.  These included the Dunkirk evacuation and the 'Shetland Bus', and they were used for all sorts of clandestine operations by special forces and the intelligence services.  Many of the fishing grounds were unusable due to the extensive minefields in the North Sea, English Channel, and across the entrances to the Bristol Channel and Irish Sea. 

 

There's a humourous/sad story about the German destroyers wanting to attack British fishing on Dogger bank but at the same time, the Lutwaffe wanted to do a anti-surface attack on various ships. There was misunderstanding and the German bombers attacked the German destroyers, sinking one and another struck a mine and sunk.

 

It ended with a total British victory:
Operation Wikinger (Viking)

[alastairq]

15 hours ago, Andy Kirkham said:

 

A particularly audacious ploy was to create a secret base for the mini-sub operations inside a derelict vessel - the Olterra - which lay half-sunk in Algeciras harbour. Under the eyes of the Spanish authorities and British observers, the Italians worked to create a secret workshop inside the ship's cargo space and cut a sliding hatch below the waterline for the mini-subs to to come and go.

There  is a film made about that episode as well......

[alastairq]

15 hours ago, MarkC said:

I too was in the Gulf during the Iran-Iraq war - I did 3 trips up to Kuwait on a reefer ship. Scary stuff - the Iranians were known to shoot up anything they wanted to...

 

During my time at sea, my first ship got caught up in the Biafran war....[MV British Hero]

Plus,of course, all the nasty hassles around the Arab-Israeli conflicts of the time. 

 

Trips into the Persian Gulf [Bandar MAsh for orders, was the dreaded telegram...Actually, never really knowing where one would end up, until it was too late!] were also fraught....There was activity around the Quoins even in the early 1970's.

Paid off my first ship[above] in Aden, of all the hellholes to end up in....months after the Brits had left...What a mess of a place.Spent a week there as we missed the once-a-week flight out to Jeddah.

Went back there [not intentionally] on my last ship [British Hussar, iIRC? Must look up my Discharge book sometime]..but this time, the Russians had taken over....equally daunting!

[Fat Controller]

19 hours ago, geoffers said:

For those who are interested in ships here is a photograph of HMS Bermuda, C52, in Sydney Harbour in 1945 or 46,  The photo is in a ruinous state, sadly, as after my mother died in 1986 I suspect my father destroyed, or tried too, much of his past life. The photos he had of Nagasaki post-bomb, and which I remember seeing as a boy, were not found when my sister and I went through his possessions after he died in 1992 - not that I am sure I would want to see them again. In 1961 not long before decommissioning HMS Bermuda was moored at Portland Naval Base and was open to visitors on the Open Day. Needless to say my mother and I were dragged all over the ship to the consternation of the OOW who finally caught up with us.

 

 

 

I remember seeing Bermuda when she was being broken up at Giant's Grave, between Swansea and Port Talbot in August 1965. 

[petethemole]

18 hours ago, Downendian said:

First the blocking of the Normandie dock at St Nazaire by HMS Campbeltown -( a complete mystery as to why this has not been a war movie epic)

Attack on the Iron Coast (1967) was based on the St, Nazaire raid, but used a minesweeper to ram the lock gates rather than a destroyer.  A modern version could use CGI to render the Campbeltown.

There's also Gift Horse (1952) with Trevor Howard.  Neither were really 'epics' though.

 

13 hours ago, Hroth said:

 

Schrage Musik was frighteningly effective, but the German interception systems had technical limitations, otherwise even more bombers would have been blasted out of the sky. 

Compounded by Allied electronic warfare that interfered with their radar, and fake fighter controller broadcasts confusing the pilots.

Edited January 31, 2022 by petethemole

[Jim Martin]

On 28/01/2022 at 17:55, Andy Kirkham said:

 

Thanks. I didn't know about the Laconia incident and I've just looked it up on Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laconia_incident . A truly ghastly  business, added to all the other horrors of the Battle of the Atlantic that I already knew about. Maybe I'm feeling a bit fragile at the moment, but I started to read The Cruel Sea recently but some of the horror was a bit much for me and I couldn't read it to the end. I guess the film toned down this aspect to a certain extent but there were still some distressing incidents as I recall, such as having to drop depth charges amidst survivors swimming in the sea.

 

I do still enjoy watching those postwar films and  I can't really find it in me to accuse them of any serious dishonesty. 

 

<Edit> I saw Midway (2019) the other day and it didn't seem all that different in essence from those British films.

I've never read The Cruel Sea, although i have leafed through it in the library; but I know what you mean about the film (which I have seen) allegedly toning some of the gorier bits down. I believe there's a bit in the book where they recover a lifeboat "crewed" entirely by skeletons? And there's a distinctly off-heroic-message bit where one survivor of the Compass Rose throws another off the bit of floating wreckage he'd been clinging to, to claim it as his own? Of course, I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that these actually happened, since Monserrat had served in the navy during the battle. 

 

I too saw Midway the other day. It does seem like those British films of 70(!) years ago, which is another way of saying that it comes over as very old-fashioned. I was impressed by its historical accuracy but wearied by its grim determination to recount the entire history of the Pacific War (Pearl Harbour! The Doolittle Raid! Japan's war in China! Coral Sea - for a few seconds! It's all here, folks!). Also, I wouldn't want to have to guess which part of the USA Ed Skrein's character came from.

 

Jim

[The Johnster]

My father was on North Atlantic convoys from the outbreak of war until 1942, when he was posted to a ship on the Mediterranean run.  At least he was spared the horror of the North Cape!  In the Atlantic, he encountered a lifeboat full of dead sailors and, in the attempt to recover the bodies in a cargo net, they were so far gone that when the net was winched, the rotting corpses shredded though it, falling on to the hapless crewman in the lifeboat who had loaded them.  The attempt was abandoned, and the man never recovered from the incident, being put ashore in Halifax and taken to a mental hospital.  I had to get dad pretty drunk before he told me that one!  He'd actually not witnessed the incident, being off watch and resting up in his bunk at the time.

[Phil Bullock]

3 hours ago, petethemole said:

Compounded by Allied electronic warfare that interfered with their radar, and fake fighter controller broadcasts confusing the pilots.

Which links bomber operations to the Battle of the Atlantic…. 
 

In an attempt to detect approaching Nachtjaeger Bomber Command started to equip aircraft with an active (transmitting) rear approach radar system called Monica . This was fine until the Luftwaffe examined crashed aircraft and discovered the device and started to fit a passive (detecting) system called Flensburg to their Nachtjaegers which effectively guided them in to bombers with the inevitable calamitous results. 
 

This was discovered when a JU88 mistakenly landed in England resulting in the immediate withdrawal of Monica. 
 

Measure and countermeasure followed but a key development for the Allies was centrimetric which evolved in to Anti Surface Vessel (ASV) radar fitted to Coastal Cimmand aircraft and was good enough to detect an exposed  periscope …. But again an active system, the Kreigsmarine developed a passive detection system known as Naxos and its developments to warn of approaching aircraft searching with ASV radar…. Crash dive! 
 

Was in Malvern on Saturday and at Croome (Defford airfield) on the previous Monday…. Key places in development of this technology. 

 

[Welchester]

On 30/01/2022 at 16:33, SouthernBlue80s said:

Also I have found that many people wether they were clergy, officers and so on, who one would consider to be NAZIs in the 30s often dropped their support in the 40s. Cardinal Galen of Munster being a good example. Allegiances changed.

 

I'm not sure that Clemens von Galen (he was a cardinal only for six weeks btw) was ever a convinced Nazi. Like many political conservatives of the time he saw National Socialism as a bulwark against communism. He was already beginning to criticise Nazism in 1934, but it wasn't until his famous denunciations in 1941 that he became 'The Lion of Muenster'.

 

Clemens August von Galen - Wikipedia entry