RCH Minerals, private owner coal wagons

[Mol_PMB]

11 hours ago, petethemole said:

Of the wagons at Templecombe, three are 5-plank wagons with wide planking, only slightly lower than the adjacent 7-plank. 

Agreed we can only see 5 of the planks but I think they are probably a mix of 7 and 8 plank wagons. The key feature is that the side door is normally 5 planks high, so on a 5-plank wagon it comes right to the top. On a 7-plank wagon there are two full-length planks above the door, and on an 8-plank there may be 3 full-length planks above the door. On that basis there are two 8-plankers and the rest have 7 planks. I agree that the top two planks (at least) are wider on the 7-plank wagons so the height difference between the two types is less than a full plank.

 

 

Referring back to my post yesterday, here is the photo of P383841 in Trafford Park in summer 1955, this is a high-numbered one and therefore a later renumbering.

Interestingly it appears to be pre-1923 in design, although it looks like it has oil axleboxes and some other features may have been updated.

Just visible at the far end of the wagon (by enhancing the original) is a large letter E, apparently not surrounded by other letters. It could have been a James Edge wagon, though I'm sure there are many other possibilities!

 

 

[Mol_PMB]

Another feature not often seen on models is wartime repairs using thinner timber. Here's an example I found in the background of a photo:

The lower 4 planks have been replaced with thinner material, remaining flush inside but requiring spacer pieces to be fitted under the strapping on the outside.

This also shows the wartime utility lettering for owner and number (Stephenson Clarke Ltd, London, 85170), along with the remains of the large S of the original SC livery.

The date of the photo is summer 1950; the wagon has not yet received a P number.

 

[petethemole]

1 hour ago, Mol_PMB said:

Agreed we can only see 5 of the planks but I think they are probably a mix of 7 and 8 plank wagons. The key feature is that the side door is normally 5 planks high, so on a 5-plank wagon it comes right to the top. On a 7-plank wagon there are two full-length planks above the door, and on an 8-plank there may be 3 full-length planks above the door. On that basis there are two 8-plankers and the rest have 7 planks. I agree that the top two planks (at least) are wider on the 7-plank wagons so the height difference between the two types is less than a full plank.

My bad.  Looking at the largest version, what I thought was the bottom of the end door is the shadow of the strapping.

[jwealleans]

4 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

Another feature not often seen on models...

 

... beacause it woudl be a b***ard to model, unless you're scratchbuilding and using separate planks.

[jwealleans]

 

Here's one from Dave Ford's dad's thread, Trowell Junction c 1950.   A mix of wooden and steel, but the leading wagon is one of those which had the top planks cut through during the war to convert them to general goods use.   You'd guess from the rest of the train here that it's now back in mineral traffic and presumably wouldn't last long having been structurally weakened in this way.

 

Original post by Dave is here.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 5, 2022 by jwealleans

[Mol_PMB]

This view from Ernie is undated but shows two RCH minerals with at least some coverage of grey paint.

The further one has a steel chassis and may be an LMS example rather than XPO:

 

This shot again from Ernie is undated but surely in the 1960s with maroon coaches and both BRCW and EE locos visible. On the right, a grey-painted RCH mineral among 16t steel ones, all loaded with coal:

 

Although the pooled XPO wagons were not painted by BR initially, I suspect that many of the later survivors had acquired a coat of grey at some stage.

 

Bringing it back to my own area of interest, here's a sea of mineral wagons at Irwell Park wharf on the Manchester Ship Canal. Standing out on the back row is a 'DENABY' RCH 8-plank with another unidentified 8-plank adjacent.

Other 7-plank and 8-plank wagons are visible among the variety of 16t steel wagons, but the latter are firmly in the majority so this is probably late 1950s:

[Mol_PMB]

Another superb colour shot from Ernie on Flickr.

This is dated 14/09/1962, and what I find interesting is the proportion of wooden-bodied RCH minerals in the train, considering that most were withdrawn by 1963.

There are a total of 19 coal wagons visible, of which five are wooden RCH wagons. Of those, three have been painted grey while the nearest two remain unpainted.

 

 

Sticking with Ernie's great photos, but going back to 1958 and this monochrome view shows two 8-plank RCH minerals. The nearer one, P86916, has enough lettering remaining to show that it was from Rossington colliery.

This P number was one of a batch allocated to the Principality Wagon Co Ltd, Cardiff, and applied to wagons passing through their works from late 1949.

[Ben Alder]

Here is a rather battered example I came across - no idea where or when - but it has had the tipping end painted, it seems.

 

[Mol_PMB]

2 hours ago, Ben Alder said:

Here is a rather battered example I came across - no idea where or when - but it has had the tipping end painted, it seems.

Thanks! That one has certainly seen better days, I think this would have been a pre-grouping example broadly to the RCH 1907 designs but with some later features.

It looks like it was used by the NCB after being withdrawn from BR service. Also, the end door has been sealed and extra vertical stanchions added to hold it shut.

The end door catches are still there though, and they're to an unusual design I think.

 

 

I've been on Flickr trawling through Ernie's collection again. I haven't yet found any more colour photos of RCH minerals but there are three rather nice monochrome examples.

First up is a photo dated 1949, featuring an elderly 6-planker with grease axleboxes. It has lost all traces of its original livery on this side at least, but has been re-lettered with 'utility' lettering:

MANCHESTER COLLIERIES Ltd, WALKDEN, MANCHESTER. The number might be 2296.

Then a 1957 photo, I think it's P47335, a fairly standard RCH 1923 7-planker which has little evidence of paint. An 8-planker is also visible behind the loco.

Finally for now, a photo dated circa 1962, showing P335706, a 1923 RCH 8-planker which has had a repaint in grey. I'm not sure whether it's coincidence but my impression is that more 8-plank wagons got repainted than 7-plankers.

 

 

 

[hmrspaul]

On 04/02/2022 at 22:34, Ben Alder said:

Here is a close up of a 6 planker, from a D Warren pic.

 

Sorry but I don't think this a mineral. It appears to be E218410 an LNER diag. 92 open merchandise. According to Tatlow would have vacuum brake, 10ft wheelbase but on a wood frame built during 1938. 

 

Paul

[hmrspaul]

1 hour ago, Mol_PMB said:

 

 

Finally for now, a photo dated circa 1962, showing P335706, a 1923 RCH 8-planker which has had a repaint in grey. I'm not sure whether it's coincidence but my impression is that more 8-plank wagons got repainted than 7-plankers.

 

 

 

Resheeted and unpainted wood. Strange that the top plank is so different - it is liable to get more damage, I wonder if it is a harder wood than the usual soft wood pine. 

 

Paul

[Mol_PMB]

Many thanks Paul. In the monochrome photos it's hard to tell the difference between unpainted softwood and pale grey. Possibly once the unpainted wood is a bit weathered it looks grey even in the colour photos. But some of the wooden wagons definitely got a grey repaint. I wonder whether the colour of the ironwork is a clue; PO wagons generally had dark ironwork but grey-painted ones had light ironwork?

Anyway, some more photos trawled from the rich seam of Ernie's albums on Flickr. I am mixing my metaphors between mining and fishing. oops.

This photo dated 1956 includes a 'DENABY' wagon - these seem to be one of the more common names post-war - perhaps a large, modern, pre-war fleet with a quality paint job?

Another one on the right hand side looks pale grey...

This shot is interesting as it apparently shows some RCH minerals in use as barrier wagons on a tank train; the date is 1960:

This shot dated 1963 shows a whole rake of RCH minerals loaded with loco coal in the background.

 

[hmrspaul]

The first one, I'm not convinced the wagon towards the right is painted. I know it seems strange to suggest such extensive resheeting but the metalwork and sides are different colours - if you look at the grey painted on in the 1963 photo it can be seen that the wood and metal are similar. We had a discussion with an elderly man in a scrapyard in Cardiff docks whom had worked at a wagon works and discussed how such wagons were totally taken to pieces - he mentioned the thousand plus nuts and bolts which were all recovered for re-use. 

I know some RCH minerals were repainted before late 1959 but it was against instructions (if the frame was wood) and HQ got annoyed about it if the records I have are anything to go by - and then the BRB stepped in and they had to change the instructions not to paint wood. How repainted wagons were paid for I have no idea! 

 

2nd photo is interesting, but black tanks should have heavy oils and not need barriers. From the photo it is possible that the tank is just one, or a few and not a solid rake. 

 

Paul

[Mol_PMB]

Thanks Paul, all good points! I'll try to get it right next time.

 

Some more from Ernie on Flickr:

Definitely no grey paint on this RCH mineral, but several shades of wood. The steel minerals do however show several shades of grey, some may be more weathered than others. Late 1950s:

 

A long rake of wooden-bodied open wagons including RCH minerals, marked 'COND' but loaded with coal. Possibly in internal use. Great variety of plank colours:

 

I guess these two must either be non-pool for some reason, or internal users (yet being hauled by a BR locomotive)?

 

[62613]

On 07/02/2022 at 19:16, Mol_PMB said:

Many thanks Paul. In the monochrome photos it's hard to tell the difference between unpainted softwood and pale grey. Possibly once the unpainted wood is a bit weathered it looks grey even in the colour photos. But some of the wooden wagons definitely got a grey repaint. I wonder whether the colour of the ironwork is a clue; PO wagons generally had dark ironwork but grey-painted ones had light ironwork?

Anyway, some more photos trawled from the rich seam of Ernie's albums on Flickr. I am mixing my metaphors between mining and fishing. oops.

This photo dated 1956 includes a 'DENABY' wagon - these seem to be one of the more common names post-war - perhaps a large, modern, pre-war fleet with a quality paint job?

Another one on the right hand side looks pale grey...

This shot is interesting as it apparently shows some RCH minerals in use as barrier wagons on a tank train; the date is 1960:

This shot dated 1963 shows a whole rake of RCH minerals loaded with loco coal in the background.

 

The last photo, I think the minerals in the background are condemned; the one furthest right certainly seems to have 'COND' lettered on its RH side

[Mol_PMB]

1 hour ago, 62613 said:

The last photo, I think the minerals in the background are condemned; the one furthest right certainly seems to have 'COND' lettered on its RH side

Agreed. But nevertheless loaded with coal. 

[Sitham Yard]

Other books I will recommend are "The 4mm Wagon" by Geoff Kent, "The 4mm Coal Wagon" by John Haynes and "Twilight of the Goods" by Don Rowland, all published by Wild Swan and all still available. 

 

I have also found it difficult to decide if replacement planks are bare wood or painted grey. I suspect some of the paint may have been rather thin. I too look to see if the ironwork has been painted or if the paint has strayed on to the next plank.   

 

Mol, you mentioned 'DENABY'. David Larkin shows that they were renewing their large fleet of wagons in the few years immediately before World War 2 and, as  you say, must have had good quality paintwork that lasted many years.

 

Incidentally, mention has been made elsewhere of discrepancies in David's books.  The comments on RM web about the problems with numbers on both wagons and coaches when setting up TOPS makes me wonder how accurate were BR records before then. I presume the process went something like this - a wagon comes into a repair yard and needs renumbering, details are taken on a piece of paper or the proverbial fag packet, taken to the office and entered in a ledger and allocated a P number. A form is then made out and sent to BR where the details are entered into a central record. The information available to David was again extracted to prepare other documents so every time there is the possibility of an error. Remember this is probably all hand written and given possible difficulties in reading someone's writing and how easy it is (I find!) to transpose digits in a number, then mistakes are likely. 

 

Andrew               

[Mol_PMB]

Many thanks Andrew, good to have some more references to look out for!

Number discrepancies are probably one of those things we just have to accept, however much it is difficult when we like everything to be straightforward and tidy. Even when the researchers and authors did their jobs perfectly there are undoubtedly errors and omissions in the official records.

There are certainly some examples of mineral wagons that carried the wrong painted number too! This one really belongs in the 16t minerals thread, it ought to be P245893 (Denaby 9076, Met-Camm, 1939):

 

[TheSignalEngineer]

On 03/02/2022 at 20:02, The Johnster said:

The muck, as I remember it, was a very dark brown, presumably a mix of brake and coal dust, and I keep a wash of this in an old container (tropical fish food if you must know), acrylic matt dark brown and black, with dribbles of grey and other paints chucked in to give it 'character', to wash-weather XPO minerals,

I keep 2 jars with a bit of white spirit in one and acrylic thinners in the other for an initial brush clean when painting. The sludge in the bottom makes excellent pigment for weathering washes.

[Sitham Yard]

Just realised something else. When painting numbers on XPO wagons there wasn't a cast number plate to refer to so again easy to make a mistake.

 

Andrew

 

[MarkSG]

On 03/02/2022 at 10:44, MarkSG said:

 there are very few, if any, models of RCH designs in early BR service

 

Actually, since posting that I have discovered that Bachmann have done some quite nice weathered ex-PO wagons. They're not in the current catalogue, so you will need to look for them on marketplace sites - I discovered them on eBay when looking for something else! So I bought one of these triple packs:

 

If you want one yourself, then there's currently at least one more on eBay - search for 'Bachmann 37-096".

 

The pack I bought was described as "new", which certainly wasn't the case - at least, I don't recall Bachmann putting Kaydee couplers on any of their UK products! But, I'm not complaining, as they also came with hand-made coal load inserts, something else that the seller seems not to have spotted when listing them.

 

As models go they're OK - they're as good as anything else from Bachmann's recent releases.  But I still think it could be done better. The factory weathering isn't, to my eye, entirely convincing - it's a bit too neat, and lacks the texture that you get from hand-applied grime. It also doesn't effectively depict the way that real-life dirt collects in the recesses in between planks. But I think that might be fairly easily improved with a light wash of heavily diluted black paint, just to give it that "coal in the cracks" look. That's something for when I've got a bit of time to spend on the workbench, maybe.

 

 

[mullie]

56 minutes ago, MarkSG said:

 

Actually, since posting that I have discovered that Bachmann have done some quite nice weathered ex-PO wagons. They're not in the current catalogue, so you will need to look for them on marketplace sites - I discovered them on eBay when looking for something else! So I bought one of these triple packs:

 

If you want one yourself, then there's currently at least one more on eBay - search for 'Bachmann 37-096".

 

The pack I bought was described as "new", which certainly wasn't the case - at least, I don't recall Bachmann putting Kaydee couplers on any of their UK products! But, I'm not complaining, as they also came with hand-made coal load inserts, something else that the seller seems not to have spotted when listing them.

 

As models go they're OK - they're as good as anything else from Bachmann's recent releases.  But I still think it could be done better. The factory weathering isn't, to my eye, entirely convincing - it's a bit too neat, and lacks the texture that you get from hand-applied grime. It also doesn't effectively depict the way that real-life dirt collects in the recesses in between planks. But I think that might be fairly easily improved with a light wash of heavily diluted black paint, just to give it that "coal in the cracks" look. That's something for when I've got a bit of time to spend on the workbench, maybe.

 

 

Worth checking closely what you are buying. Some years ago I acquired some of these. Some have bodysides that are too thick and some have what look like old Mainline chassis. Depends what you are willing to accept.

 

Martyn

[MarkSG]

32 minutes ago, mullie said:

Worth checking closely what you are buying. Some years ago I acquired some of these. Some have bodysides that are too thick and some have what look like old Mainline chassis. Depends what you are willing to accept.

 

They're not particularly accurate, no. The chassis is, pretty much, identical to a Mainline wagon that I also bought from eBay some time ago. I still think there's a lot of scope for an RCH design to modern standards. But, for now, these are probably as good as we've got.

[Craigw]

Like a few people here, I am always peering in the background of photographs to find the interesting things. I found this negative on Ebay a few weeks ago (and won it). The loco is 7005 Lamphrey Castle and the photo was taken at Oxford in 1948. My interest is in the background though! 

 

Please do not share elsewhere without my permission. Original photographer unknown.

 

Regards,

 

Craig W

[Mol_PMB]

Lovely photo! Older 5 and 6 plank ex-PO wagons, and MOT 16-tonners to diagrams 1/100 and 1/103.

Stephenson Clarke are well-known but I haven't seen a HOWARDS of Newark wagon before.

Esso tanks in the background, possibly ex Air Ministry types as they have ladders and catwalks.