Door stops and livery of GWR diagram O4 5-plank opens - questions, questions...

[magmouse]

Just to close the loop on this, here are some pictures of the finished wagon:

 

 

 

 

Nick.

 

[Miss Prism]

Great stuff, but the shape of the '3' on the tarp jumped out at me - it seemed very un-GWR. Then I looked at Mikkel's blog, and that seems to indicate the GWR tarpaulins had 3s with round tops or straight tops.

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/blogs/entry/18892-fake-news-and-wagon-sheets/

 

[Mikkel]

 

 

6 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

Great stuff, but the shape of the '3' on the tarp jumped out at me - it seemed very un-GWR. Then I looked at Mikkel's blog, and that seems to indicate the GWR tarpaulins had 3s with round tops or straight tops.

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/blogs/entry/18892-fake-news-and-wagon-sheets/

 

 

I can't see any round tops in the blog post Miss P, unless I am missing something?

 

Both versions of @Ian Smith's artwork (images currently missing for well-known reasons) have straight tops. The prototype photos I can find of sheets with 3s shows straight tops.

 

However, the GWR did seem to have differing preferences on the matter more broadly. Looking through various prototype photos from Edwardian days to the the 1940s indicates:

• Stationary has 3s with round tops
• GWR loco numberplates have straight tops
• Cast wagon no. plates show round tops as per Nicks model above
• Other plates show either rounded or straight tops
• Cartage stock has curved tops when painted on the vehicle, but straight tops on the sheets used over hoops

 

There does not seem to be an obvious time factor involved, but that would require a more systematic study. An obvious subject for a PhD 🙂

 

(PS: I seem to have Putin making a true statement in that blog post. Bizarre.)

 

Edited April 28, 2022 by Mikkel

[Mikkel]

7 hours ago, magmouse said:

Just to close the loop on this, here are some pictures of the finished wagon:

 

 

 

 

Nick.

 

 

Excellent. If you asked me what I'd prefer on the mantlepiece, an A4 or that wagon, I would truthfully choose the latter. 

 

[Miss Prism]

1 hour ago, Mikkel said:

I can't see any round tops in the blog post Miss P, unless I am missing something?

 

Agreed, I was using that particular post as a jumping off point to some of your other blog posts, but I couldn't remember the actual one that had a round top 3 (maybe on one of the Smiths sheets?).

 

Edited April 28, 2022 by Miss Prism

[kitpw]

9 hours ago, magmouse said:

the finished wagon

Very nice Nick and a lesson in what "finished" means - somewhere I never quite seem to get to. 

Kit PW

[Mikkel]

8 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

 

Agreed, I was using that particular post as a jumping off point to some of your other blog posts, but I couldn't remember the actual one that had a round top 3 (maybe on one of the Smiths sheets?).

 

 

Yes, the commercially available Smith sheets (not Ian's) do have  rounded top to the 3s. Not sure I would trust that though.

 

[Miss Prism]

3 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

Not sure I would trust that though.

 

Oh.

[Mikkel]

I should emphasize the "not sure". I'm saying this based only on wagon sheet photos I've come across so far, which all have straight tops to the 3s. I don't know what the Smith sheets are based on.

 

Edited April 28, 2022 by Mikkel

[Compound2632]

A superb model.

[magmouse]

21 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

Great stuff, but the shape of the '3' on the tarp jumped out at me - it seemed very un-GWR.

 

As Mikkel noted, the design is from @Ian Smith's artwork. The flat-top 3s are certainly accurate in terms of the two pictures in the GW Wagons Appendix I used as my main point of reference - figs 22 and 23. Fig 22 shows a 5-plank with cast plates and a new, shiny sheet, like my model, though as I am modelling c.1908, the red livery is a bit weathered on the basis the last repaint was pre 1904. Fig 23 shows a 7-plank wagon sheeted with the exact sheet I have modelled - 31251. Your wider point is an interesting one - that flat and round top 3s were used in different contexts and (possibly) different times. Corporate branding wasn't quite so rigid then, I guess, though obviously considered.

 

Nick.

[magmouse]

15 hours ago, Mikkel said:

Excellent. If you asked me what I'd prefer on the mantlepiece, an A4 or that wagon, I would truthfully choose the latter. 

 

That means a lot coming from you, Mikkel. I know it's a cliché, but the thing about 'standing on the shoulders of giants' applies here - the knowledge, techniques and inspiration have come from you and other members of the forum - thank you, all!

[magmouse]

13 hours ago, Mikkel said:

I don't know what the Smith sheets are based on.

 

In any case, the represent the later design of sheet, as far as I can tell, with simplified text. The round top threes may be accurate for that, but I can't immediately find a picture of the later style.

 

Nick.

[Compound2632]

14 minutes ago, magmouse said:

Fig 22 shows a 5-plank with cast plates and a new, shiny sheet, like my model,

 

 

http://www.gwr.org.uk/liverieswagplate.html

[magmouse]

13 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

A superb model.

 

Thank you! Again - it's all thanks to people like you, Mikkel, Miss Prism, Wenlock and many others.

[Mikkel]

It's a shame pooling wasn't introduced until after your period. I was looking through the Taff vale Models site and came across these two 7mm kits for the Barry and CR. Imagine one of each + your 4-planker. What a trio that would make:

• https://taffvalemodels.ecwid.com/Barry-Railway-Great-Western-10-Ton-High-Sided-Wagon-4-Plank-p184439647
• https://taffvalemodels.ecwid.com/CC007-CR-LMS-8ton-4-plank-Open-Wagon-p184439675

 

 

[magmouse]

51 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

It's a shame pooling wasn't introduced until after your period. I was looking through the Taff vale Models site and came across these two 7mm kits for the Barry and CR. Imagine one of each + your 4-planker. What a trio that would make:

 

Yes, I've looked at those kits - very nice, but as you say, modelling the pre-pooling period, I need to limit the number of non-GWR wagons. I have a D299 MR 5-plank bringing beer from Burton-on-Trent, and have the old ABS kit for an LSWR 3-plank bringing bricks (in my imagined Dorset coast location, the nearest brick-making clay is in LSWR territory).

 

I am though gradually building up a rake that will show the range of GWR opens of the period, from 1-plank to 5. Nothing you haven't already done in 4mm, of course! The mix of red and grey liveries will also add variety, plus PO coal wagons. Currently on the workbench is a diagram N13 loco coal wagon, using the Slaters (ex Coopercraft) kit - quite a lot of work fixing its major inaccuracies: too narrow; square corners, not round; no flange on the top edge; sides too thick; brake gear (DC1) has push rods the wrong way round; headstock ends incorrect. All good fun, though...

 

Nick. 

[Compound2632]

44 minutes ago, magmouse said:

modelling the pre-pooling period, I need to limit the number of non-GWR wagons. I have a D299 MR 5-plank bringing beer from Burton-on-Trent, and have the old ABS kit for an LSWR 3-plank bringing bricks (in my imagined Dorset coast location, the nearest brick-making clay is in LSWR territory).

 

Where does your coal come from? Who are the customers? Purely domestic, or is there a gas works or brewery? (The latter about to go under thanks to those D299 deliveries from Burton.)

 

I note the photo of West Bay c. 1900, in The Bridport Branch, B.L Jackson and M.J. Tattershall (OPC, 1976) which includes, in addition to a number of Great Western opens of various vintages and an Iron Mink, a dumb-buffered 4-plank end-door wagon from the Somerset coalfield.

 

Thinking about potential routes for the Burton ale, a LNWR van might be just as likely, via Wichnor, Dudley, and the Severn Tunnel.

[richbrummitt]

20 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

 

http://www.gwr.org.uk/liverieswagplate.html

That sheet includes the ‘sail’. A design that predates the one on @magmouse wagon. 

Edited April 29, 2022 by richbrummitt

[Compound2632]

50 minutes ago, richbrummitt said:

That sheet includes the ‘sail’. A design that predates the one on @magmouse wagon. 

 

That is no sail but the sinster angel's wing, the crest from the arms of the City of London:

 

 

as stolen by the Great Western:

[41516]

11 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

(The latter about to go under thanks to those D299 deliveries from Burton.)

 

Unless the brewery had bottling facilities, and/or a loan-tie agreement with a larger Burton Brewery

 

As late 19th century tastes changed towards bottled beers, Bass had numerous agreements with companies around the country to bottle their beers and by the early part of the 20th century, about 75% of sales of Bass Pale Ale was in bottles ('The Greatest Brewery In the World' A History of Bass, Ratcliff & Gretton, Colin C Owen, pg109). Edit - For a small example,  Titanic sank with 12000 bottles of Bass on board!

 

Bass was also busy at the time arranging loans to smaller breweries as a way of getting around the reduction in licences*, where in return for the loan the smaller company would agree to sell products from the larger company, giving Bass retail outlets in new markets.

 

It was only after WWI that the real series of major acquistions and mergers started for Bass, so for a ~1900 brewery, they have a few more years left yet.

 

*following the 1872 Licensing Act

 

Edited April 29, 2022 by 41516
spelling

[richbrummitt]

On 28/04/2022 at 07:52, Mikkel said:

 

Yes, the commercially available Smith sheets (not Ian's) do have  rounded top to the 3s. Not sure I would trust that though.

 

Nor I. Whilst the location of the GW above the number on each edge is the arrangement arrived at following the 1919 circular from the REC the characters on this example look like they rely on the letters and numbers to hand however the product was created rather than what appears in photographs. The G is quite obviously not circular enough and all are far too thick. 
 

Source: Great Western Way (3rd), Appendix 13. 

Edited April 29, 2022 by richbrummitt

[magmouse]

11 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Where does your coal come from? Who are the customers? Purely domestic, or is there a gas works or brewery? (The latter about to go under thanks to those D299 deliveries from Burton.)

 

I note the photo of West Bay c. 1900, in The Bridport Branch, B.L Jackson and M.J. Tattershall (OPC, 1976) which includes, in addition to a number of Great Western opens of various vintages and an Iron Mink, a dumb-buffered 4-plank end-door wagon from the Somerset coalfield.

 

Thinking about potential routes for the Burton ale, a LNWR van might be just as likely, via Wichnor, Dudley, and the Severn Tunnel.

 

Some coal I envisage as domestic, of course. Assuming the fictitious Netherport is a similar size to Bridport - a population of around 7000 - then at a typical average of 1 ton per year per person, that's 7000 tons/year or about 20 tons a day - two wagons (with seasonal variations). Let's say 4-5 wagons, two or three times a week.

 

Then there is industrial traffic - I am not imaging a brewery or gasworks, but a marine and general engineering works as part of the harbour complex. This will need coal, and just possibly supplies for the occasional new-fangled coastal steamer.

 

Coal could come by rail from the Somerset fields, South Wales or Midlands, depending on available prices and type of coal required. Perhaps also by sea from South Wales and even Kent - certainly Cornwall and Devon coastal areas were served that way.

 

I am planning a fictitious local coal merchant, to justify a few older dumb-buffered, round-ended wagons. Then some wagons belonging to collieries and coal factors - I'm still working out likely traffic flows to decide what would be relevant, but hoping to justify the ancient Slaters kits for an Ocean (already built) and a United wagon I picked up a while ago. Everything will be doubled up for loaded and empty - not literally the same wagon twice, but equivalents for each traffic flow.

 

Any advice, thoughts or pointers to information on the above would be gratefully received.

 

And as to an LNWR van of beer - you are very naughty, Stephen, with your temptations. Now I have visions of something delightfully 19th century, outside framed with an opening roof, like this:

 

 

(HMRS photo: https://hmrs.org.uk/-aag025--6t-box-van-lnwr-84513-d-33-.html)

 

Perhaps bringing bottled beer, for the folks in the upper town to have with their supper, while the denizens of the lower town and harbour-side drink beer from the casks brought in the D299.

 

Nick.

Edited April 29, 2022 by magmouse
Fixed typos.

[magmouse]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

That is no sail but the sinster angel's wing, the crest from the arms of the City of London:

 

That's a very dragon-y kind of angel...

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, magmouse said:

That's a very dragon-y kind of angel...

 

Sorry, yes, I was mis-remembering. From Wikipedia:

 

On a wreath argent and gules a dragon's sinister wing argent charged on the underside with a cross throughout gules.