Photograph location help required

[65179]

9 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Bother - its being a Sheffield engine was so confirmatory! Where was 5037 shedded?

 

Not sure, but 5035/6 were recorded in early 1935 with Trafford Park plates. Probably Trafford Park or Kentish Town. Someone may have the relevant Book of the Black Fives to confirm.

 

Edit: Totally wrong as correct info below. 

 

Simon

Edited February 10, 2022 by 65179
Incorrect assumption

[Compound2632]

23 minutes ago, 65179 said:

Not sure, but 5035/6 were recorded in early 1935 with Trafford Park plates. Probably Trafford Park or Kentish Town. Someone may have the relevant Book of the Black Fives to confirm.

 

Trafford Park would work well - a Manchester - Nottingham express, perhaps.

[Chris Turnbull]

7 hours ago, 65179 said:

 

Not sure, but 5035/6 were recorded in early 1935 with Trafford Park plates. Probably Trafford Park or Kentish Town. Someone may have the relevant Book of the Black Fives to confirm.

 

I have just realised that I have that book!  45037 was at Bushbury from 12/1/35, Leeds from 10/2/35 and Patricroft from 20/12/36.

 

Chris Turnbull 

[65179]

38 minutes ago, Chris Turnbull said:

 

I have just realised that I have that book!  45037 was at Bushbury from 12/1/35, Leeds from 10/2/35 and Patricroft from 20/12/36.

 

Chris Turnbull 

 

Thanks Chris, I had a feeling I should have hedged my bets and added Holbeck, Millhouses and Nottingham to my list of possibilities!  R.E. Rose in his book LMS & LNER in Manchester recorded just about every other loco in that number sequence at Manchester Central apart from 5037 in that period so I should have known better!

 

Those dates tally with 5035/36 appearing at Trafford Park, so that batch amongst others was obviously spread around as the division got used to the new locos. 10/2/35-20/12/36 nicely date limits your photo though.

 

8 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Trafford Park would work well - a Manchester - Nottingham express, perhaps.

Even if 5037 had been a Trafford Park loco then it would not have been on a Manchester-Nottingham as these went via Peak Forest; the Dore and Chinley line being operated more like a branch for passenger train purposes at the time.

 

Simon

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, 65179 said:

Even if 5037 had been a Trafford Park loco then it would not have been on a Manchester-Nottingham as these went via Peak Forest; the Dore and Chinley line being operated more like a branch for passenger train purposes at the time.

 

I knew the Peak Forest line was the route for Nottingham trains in Midland days but I'm fairly ignorant of the LMS period. 

 

In the hunt for the location of this photo I came across the accident at Hope in 1925. The report describes the passenger train as a Manchester Central to Sheffield express - it clearly wasn't booked to stop at Hope - but was made up of only three carriages, which from the photo that led me to this, were non-corridor lavatory stock of 1898-1902 vintage - or possibly even non-lavatory. So, not a very high-class express but more than just a local, at this date. But were there any passenger workings between the Hope Valley line and the Chesterfield direction?

 

The train in the photo is, then, presumably from Sheffield not Manchester, and given 5037's allocations, perhaps from Leeds - if one is willing to believe a 1935/6 date for the photo. 

 

[65179]

Given the condition of the black 5 there's no doubt about the dating of the photo.  The train could be any of the options you mention plus a Bradford or even Glasgow/Edinburgh express.

 

I did say more like a branch. I don't get the impression that the Hope Valley service changed much from LMS to early BR days: Chinley having a better Sheffield service than Manchester; one Sheffield-Manchester express in the morning peak; and most Manchester-Sheffield services having a long layover at Chinley. 

 

From memory (and it's a while since I read up on this route), the Dore South curve saw little passenger use if any in that period, but I don't have a working timetable to check. In more modern times it has had periods of greater passenger use: St Pancras expresses for a little while after the Peak Forest route closed as a through route; class 156s on the Nottingham trains that missed out Sheffield briefly in the late 1980s; and the Project Rio HSTs while the West Coast upgrade was happening.  In the period I'm interested in (ca.1950) it would have been clogged up with Avenue-Gowhole etc minerals!

 

Simon

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, 65179 said:

In the period I'm interested in (ca.1950) it would have been clogged up with Avenue-Gowhole etc minerals!

 

Thanks, yes from what I've read the Dore & Totley was always primarily about goods and mineral traffic. From Ahrons I've gleaned that before the D&T, Midland goods trains between South Yorkshire and Manchester ran over the MS&L via Woodhead by running powers, as did the Great Northern. The Great Northern trains transferred to the D&T, not doubt partly in pique at the loss of the GN/MS&L Manchester expresses on the opening of the GC London Estension!

[65179]

One lasting oddity of that GN move was an evening ER Manchester (Deansgate Goods - the ex-GN goods warehouse next to Manchester Central)  to Colwick express freight that ran that way rather than over Woodhead until 1952.

 

Sorry Chris for the massive digression cluttering up your thread!

 

Simon

[LMS2968]

Its first shed was Crewe (the EHC doesn't specify North or South) but quickly (6/10/34) moved to Willesden, then Bushbury 12/5/51.

 

I think the photo dates from late 1934 to early 1935 , judging by the lack of the step below the smokebox door.

Edited February 10, 2022 by LMS2968
Added information

[woodenhead]

6 hours ago, 65179 said:

One lasting oddity of that GN move was an evening ER Manchester (Deansgate Goods - the ex-GN goods warehouse next to Manchester Central)  to Colwick express freight that ran that way rather than over Woodhead until 1952.

 

Sorry Chris for the massive digression cluttering up your thread!

 

Simon

And one that used A3s no less for motive power IIRC from my father

[bécasse]

10 hours ago, 65179 said:

One lasting oddity of that GN move was an evening ER Manchester (Deansgate Goods - the ex-GN goods warehouse next to Manchester Central)  to Colwick express freight that ran that way rather than over Woodhead until 1952.

While it may or may not have been the reason in this case, such odd workings often occurred to enable loco men to retain their route knowledge of an emergency diversionary route. 

[TheSignalEngineer]

On 09/02/2022 at 12:37, iands said:

Not that it will help in any way to identify the location, but just noticed the unusual arms on the telegraph pole on the left. Most arms (except the top two) appear to have been cut short on the "track" side with only one pot fitted. 

I think they may be cross wires and it's just the angle putting one row of pots behind the pole.