Round ended wagons: 2 and 3 plank

[drduncan]

I've dug out my GW Wagons 3 plank instructions and prototype information.  From this I think there are the following variations on the 3 plank theme.

• Round end, wooden frames, 3" curb rail (2 width variants: 7' & 6'11" - not that 1" will make much visual difference @ 0.3mm)
• Round end, wooden frames, 3" curb rail, fitched iron solebar plates (but I'm unsure what this means in practice) (2 width variants: 7' & 6'11" - not that 1" will make much visual difference @ 0.3mm)
• Round end, iron bulb section frames, C section headstocks
• Square end, iron frames, 5" curb rail (1885 construction onwards)
• Square end, iron frames, 3" curb rail 

Here is the 3d model of the first variant: square end, iron frame with 5" curb rail

Regards,

 

Duncan

[Miss Prism]

Were there any 3-plankers with ends like this?:

 

[Compound2632]

42 minutes ago, drduncan said:

fitched iron solebar plates (but I'm unsure what this means in practice)

 

Fitched or flitched - an iron plate, perhaps ¼" or ⅜" thick, covering the outside of the solebar, rendering unnecessary the use of separate washer plates for the nuts securing the cross rods, axleguards, frame corner knees, etc. - many LNWR wagons were so built, see for example:https://www.lnwrs.org.uk/Wagons/open/Diag001.php.

 

A wagon with fitched solebars would have a higher tare weight than an otherwise similar one without.

 

I suppose wagons with wooden frames would have wooden end pillars rather than iron stanchions?

Edited March 6, 2022 by Compound2632

[drduncan]

And now the round end with iron frames and 52 curb rail:

Now to throw them both at chutibox... and dig out the GW wagon bible to see if it has any wise words about the thickness of wooden frames....

 

Duncan

[drduncan]

20 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

Were there any 3-plankers with ends like this?:

 

 

I don't think so - but I'd be very happy to be proved wrong.  More variety of wagons for the narrow gauge traffic on Nampara to provide a break from the monotony of ex CMR iron tippler wagons for the china clay traffic.  

 

D

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, drduncan said:

dig out the GW wagon bible to see if it has any wise words about the thickness of wooden frames....

 

Good luck with that.

 

Standard dimensions for solebars and headstocks would be 11" x 4½" or 12" x 5" (the latter appearing on the RCH 1887 specification drawings for PO wagons) with the solebars set at 6' 1" between inside faces, so that the centre-line of the bearing springs are at the same 6' 6" centres as the journals.

[drduncan]

5 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Fitched or flitched - an iron plate, perhaps ¼" or ⅜" thick, covering the outside of the solebar, rendering unnecessary the use of separate washer plates for the nuts securing the cross rods, axleguards, frame corner knees, etc. - many LNWR wagons were so built, see for example:https://www.lnwrs.org.uk/Wagons/open/Diag001.php.

 

A wagon with fitched solebars would have a higher tare weight than an otherwise similar one without.

 

I suppose wagons with wooden frames would have wooden end pillars rather than iron stanchions?

Thanks for the info.  So that is doable, and more importantly I'll know there is a difference that I can point out to those not quick witted enough to recognise the signs of imminent exposition and move on.

 

I hadn't though about the end stanchions being wood, but that makes sense.  I'll see if I can find a picture (gentle readers - not just @Compound2632- do feel free to take this as a challenge to beat me to the photographic treasure).

 

D

[drduncan]

Only I won't be throwing the designs at chutibox just yet as I've just noticed I've left off the oval coupling plate (because I don't have any dimensions for one and not at all because I forgot to add it to the drawing or to do list...)

D

[bécasse]

2 hours ago, drduncan said:

And now the round end with iron frames and 52 curb rail:

Now to throw them both at chutibox... and dig out the GW wagon bible to see if it has any wise words about the thickness of wooden frames....

 

Duncan

That's not how the ends of the wagon in the Warwickshire Railway's site photo are planked. Playing with the contrast levels shows clearly that the ends had 4½ planks, the lowest four all having the same height as the side planks and the same width, while the top narrow plank was obviously rather narrower than the wagon.

[Compound2632]

9 minutes ago, bécasse said:

the top narrow plank was obviously rather narrower than the wagon.

 

That's normal for arc or raised-ended wagons of the period. The side planks run the full length of the wagon and the end planks make a butt joint with them at the corners - so the length of the end planks is the same as the inside width of the wagon. Thus any curvature or raised parts starts one plank-width in from the edge - 2½" or 3". Have a look at the PO wagons here.

Edited March 6, 2022 by Compound2632

[drduncan]

So I’ve found some interesting (well I think they’re interesting) images of 3 plank wagons. Both are cropped from a single image of Acton yard reproduced in ‘Edwardian Enterprise’.

 

This one is interesting because it’s either wooden framed or fitched framed. Note the outside v hanger. Shame the number is blurred. It also looks like the curb rail is the narrow 3” type.

Here you can see wooden end stanchions which makes me wonder if this is a round ended example that has wooden frames or fitched ones like the square ended one in the top image.

 

Any other thoughts?

 

D

Edited March 7, 2022 by drduncan
Typo

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, drduncan said:

Any other thoughts?

 

I agree that the square-ended one has flitched wooden solebars. Unless the wagon has been fitted with both-side brakes (unlikely at this date) it will have its as-built arrangement with the brake shaft supported by a V hanger on the outside of the solebar and a vertical strut attached to a frame cross-member, behind the push-rod tumbler. (Iron framed wagons have the V-hanger attached to the flat rear face of the solebar but otherwise the arrangement is the same.) I think it has a 5-digit number beginning 34, which is a little awkward as my notes from Atkins et al. (3rd edition) only give old series lot 211, Nos. 31401-31600, as having flitched frames; however, I've come not to trust these authors to give full information on 19th century wagons. Then there's the question whether this is a wagon built with round ends and modified, or built with square ends.

 

I agree that the wagon with round ends and wood end pillars must be wood framed. Its number appears to be 3?634; possibly 31634, old series lot 212, the next lot after the lot recorded with flitched frames - so has it or hasn't it? !

 

I'm looking at a photo in T. Wood, Saltney Carriage and Wagon Works (GWSG / The Wider View, 2007), plate 30, Swindon C&W sidings, 30th April 1908, with a nice contrast in 3-plank wagons. One - number annoyingly off the edge of the photo - with flitched frames, wood end pillars, grease axleboxes, still in pre-1904 lettering, and the curb rail looking rather worn where the door drops down. The other, 41088 (old series lot 333), with iron frames, iron end stanchions, upgraded to oil axleboxes, post-1904 lettering, and with a half-round lip bolted to the curb rail under the door, to stop the wear seen on the older wagon. The curb rail is 5" rather than 3".  

 

 

[drduncan]

From the lot lists included with the GWW instructions:

 

osL 211 was a round ended lot but it could have been converted to square ends by the late Edwardian period.

 

osL 231 had fitched frames round ends (see above note)  and included 34001-100 in the numbers allocated.

 

No other lots with wooden or fitched frames in the 34*** sequence I’m afraid. There are a number of lots where no specific comment about frames is made: osL 196, 202, 266 (all round ends as built), 284, 289, 294, 295, 296, 297, 320 (all square ends as built) 

 

D

 

Edited March 7, 2022 by drduncan
Typo in number sequence

[Chrisbr]

On 06/03/2022 at 23:10, Compound2632 said:

The other, 41088 (old series lot 333), with iron frames, iron end stanchions, upgraded to oil axleboxes,

Axleboxes upgraded in Sept 1902 as far as I can tell.....

[drduncan]

Thanks @Chrisbr! All info like that very gratefully received. Any info on the series 34001-100?

D

[drduncan]

The first 3 planks with bulb frames have printed ok, I think, but the photos are blurred. I took note of @bécasse and adjusted the width of the round end version. However, I have forgotten to add the oval coupling plate on the headstocks of both versions, so back to the laptop very soon!

[Chrisbr]

42 minutes ago, drduncan said:

Any info on the series 34001-100?

Sadly I haven't recorded that series yet...

[drduncan]

Hopefully a clear photo of the round ended 3 plank.

 
I think I also forgot the recess behind the solebar for the etched v hanger. Just the plinth to remove and clean up the end that had the supports.

D

[magmouse]

@drduncan - great. Looking forward to seeing this once it is made up into the wagon...

 

Nick.

[drduncan]

Dear all,

 

While waiting to get back at the printer to print off the next test pieces including a Dean broad gauge bogie, and for workbench time to inspect/finish the 3 planks with bulb frames, I've manged to complete the 3 plank round end with fitched frames.  I think the end stanchions might be a bit too thick wide.  Do any of you have an opinion?

 

Regards,

 

Duncan