Where / best way to start in 7mm?

[Clan Mcadder]

Hi everyone , 

 

i am possibly thinking of switching from 4mm to 7mm , and i am stuck as to a possible entrance way into the scale.

 

Now i am possibly thinking of changing scales due to at the tender age of 25 i find out tomorrow if i am going to lose the sight in one eye (other ones isn't great either!) thus rendering me as blind as a flying mouse ! 

 

so i am trying to think of ways i can keep going in the hobby and one way i thought is moving up a scale , so i am looking for any advice those of you in the larger world started or would say recommend starting in o gauge .

 

many thanks 

 

 

[Simond]

Sorry to hear of your troubles.  Hopefully, the news regarding your sight will be better than you fear.

 

there will be as many answers to your question as there are modellers, so I’ll try to give you some ideas to help you decide.

 

I guess the first question will be “era” and the second will be “space” and the third is likely “money”.  Most folks have a clear preference for the first, and not enough of the other two.  
 

another question, are you, or could you be, part of a club, at which you could run your stock?  That might allow you to collect & enjoy the stock you prefer without necessarily having the space in which to run it.

 

if you have a 6 foot by 1 foot shelf, a diorama is probably the best you can do.  0 gauge takes up space.  A cross over will be 700-800mm, whilst older stock is smaller, modern coaches might well be 500mm or more, and modern mainline locos are enormous, so “big” kind-of happens without you trying.
 

Assuming you don’t have ambitions for a modern mainline layout, shunting puzzles can be great fun, and with some scenic treatment, make a good place to show off your rolling stock too and/or provide a photo backdrop.   Docks, harbours and industrial settings offer the opportunity for smaller locos and stock to operate on tight curves, which can help with the space question too.  My Greater Windowledge Railway fell into this category - it was about ten feet long and 18” wide.   Google “space saver” for some ideas.

The Gauge 0 Guild produced several books on layouts - for small spaces, for gardens, etc.  I’m no longer a member but there is certainly plenty of info for the 7mm beginner.  
 

there are lots of small layouts on here, and some rather bigger ones.
 

will you build your own track?  If so, 0-MF offers a useful improvement over RTR track, and you can go the whole hog with Scale 7.  Provably the equivalents of EM and P4 respectively.  There is an S7 society.

 

Lots of RTR stock available, particularly for the GW fan.  Less so for other regions, but there’s still a fair bit around.

 

Kitbuilding covers all sorts, all regions, most eras.  Second-hand is also a good source of stock and track.  The bring & buy at Kettering last week was well stocked (except for what I was looking for  ), and there are several well-known traders who specialise in 0 gauge.

 

You might want to read about Ramchester on here too.

 

hope that helps

Simon

 

 

 

 

 

[Western Star]

I am a S7 modeller and I agree with what Simon has written above.

 

regards, Graham Beare

[New Haven Neil]

Some RTR track, Dapol loco, some wagons.....can be no more expensive than OO.

 

[New Haven Neil]

Errr except that was a Minerva loco, sorry - a little more expensive.  This one's Dapol!

 

[railwayrod]

Firstly let me introduce myself. I am Rod Wilson from the Torbay area and since the age of 22 I have been registered as blind. However I still retain some useful vision in my right eye which enables me to get about without a white stick and allows me to participate in railway modelling. I can just about see to assemble a wagon kit using high powered optics but soldering is almost a no-no as the use of these optics necessitates the soldering iron being virtually on the end of my nose. Painting is also difficult as I am unable to differentiate subtle variations of colour. Anyway enough of my problems and difficulties.

 

I totally agree with the above comments and starting with a RTR loco and some wagons is a good first step without having to spend a huge amount of money. It would also give you some idea of how impressive 0 gauge is and what can be achieved in the space you have available. Another idea might be to have a go at a simple scratch built hut or small building just to see if your eyesight can cope with this. I do not know what your eye condition is but for most of my working life I have been involved with the rehabilitation of visually impaired people and towards the end of my working life I ran the low vision clinic at out local hospital.

 

My own 0 gauge layout can be found elsewhere on RMweb under 7mm+modelling/The Ramchester Chronicles and was featured in Railway Modeller for April 2020. I have posted a picture below for your interest.

Thank you Simon for giving my layout a plug.

 

Finally if you want some advice on how to cope with poor vision please feel free to contact me via a PM.

 

Rod

 

[DCB]

7 hours ago, Clan Mcadder said:

Hi everyone , 

I find out tomorrow if i am going to lose the sight in one eye (other ones isn't great either!) thus rendering me as blind as a flying mouse ! 

many thanks 

You will find out if the specialist thinks you will lose the sight.. About as reliable as tips from a stable lad re which horse will win the 2.30 at Kempton Park.  Apparently I was going to lose the use of my legs 8 years ago, the expert, well the Specialist's side kick,  said "Within 2 years" 10 years ago.   Well I'm better now than I was then.  

 

Some indication of space available would be good. If my garden was bigger I would have gone 7mm but I can't get the curves in.   

7mm is a good move, RTR 7mm is now coming down to parity with 00 if you make careful choices, it also takes up almost twice the length and over three times the volume so you can cram less in, and holds its value better.  If your sight does become less sharp then Analogue makes sense, big chunky switches and knobs not touch screens. and sensible couplings, not 3 link.  Its actually quite fun listening to trains pass in total darkness in the worst case scenario, metal wheels, scale 60ft fail lengths and biggish rail gaps.
It sounds like you are going to need someone to share your modelling with, Fault finding needs sharp eyesight, but I often uncouple and re rail stock I can't see by feel in my Fiddle Yard . 

[47606odin]

Welcome to possibly O gauge.

 

well, going from your profile picture, you might be here at the right time. Dapol, produce Inverness allocated 08717, Heljan are producing a new batch of the McRats, and 37’s and 47’s are available to suit the Highland area.

 

so, you could make a small depot, pseudo Inverness, you don’t have to build all of Inverness, I’m in the process of half of Hither Green shed slightly shrunk too and that is basically 12’ long including a sensible sized Traverser, but it is indeed space, money, and what era you like to model will dictate what is available. Less is more in O gauge (except I appear to be buying the entire depot allocation for some reason, but that gets expensive) the easier way around that would be a 26 or 27, a few fish vans and a lochside wharf loading from a trawler, that gives you shunting opportunities. My suggestion is to stay away from a branch line terminus ( for years I thought a BLT was a sandwich!) because that takes up a lot more space than you’d need if you want to shunt wagons and things.

[Simond]

6 hours ago, DCB said:

You will find out if the specialist thinks you will lose the sight.. About as reliable as tips from a stable lad re which horse will win the 2.30 at Kempton Park.  Apparently I was going to lose the use of my legs 8 years ago, the expert, well the Specialist's side kick,  said "Within 2 years" 10 years ago.   Well I'm better now than I was then.  

to be fair, if he had a working crystal ball, he’d probably not be working for the NHS, or anyone else, for that matter…

[Clan Mcadder]

Hi Guys,

 

wow all  can say is thanks for the support , so yes i forgot to mention some of the guides etc space and era .

 

As for space  it will be small , now i am thinking 6x2/8x2 , i am very happy to shuffle wagons around backwards and forwards with a small 0-4-0 or 0-6-0 . ive looked at hattons just to see sort of what prices i would need to get started . with a sentinel and 5 wagons some points and track its about £650 which also includes a signal box and a hut and crossing just to add to the scene . 

 

in terms of my era and location i am  pretty open , i mean i do like my highland power but i think space is going to limit what i can do for the cost . but i am also very happy with light railway feel so something late 40's or 60's would work well i think with a Dapol sentinel or maybe a Heljan 02 when they arrive .

 

so as for cost yes i think id like (as everybody) to spend as little as possible really , i dont mind the £650 to start out and looking at the prices Dapol wagons are only a little more than Bachmann 00 ones !  and as has been pointed out you need less . 

 

but i am very very grateful for all  the help and advice , for a little bit of background, ive only had problems with my sight for the last 5 years or so first it was needing glasses for long distance  then its got to the point in the past 18 months that the left is all a blur , resulting in wonky eyes as a family member says .  now in terms of help with the layout  my dad is already a very good seasoned modeler so ive got the help if i really need it but id rather not squint and cock up on 00 gauge as ive noticed i have been, and i am now unable to build my precious wagon kits so i hope hes got room for another 120 plus wagons ! 

 

11 hours ago, railwayrod said:

Firstly let me introduce myself. I am Rod Wilson from the Torbay area and since the age of 22 I have been registered as blind. However I still retain some useful vision in my right eye which enables me to get about without a white stick and allows me to participate in railway modelling. I can just about see to assemble a wagon kit using high powered optics but soldering is almost a no-no as the use of these optics necessitates the soldering iron being virtually on the end of my nose. Painting is also difficult as I am unable to differentiate subtle variations of colour. Anyway enough of my problems and difficulties.

 

I totally agree with the above comments and starting with a RTR loco and some wagons is a good first step without having to spend a huge amount of money. It would also give you some idea of how impressive 0 gauge is and what can be achieved in the space you have available. Another idea might be to have a go at a simple scratch built hut or small building just to see if your eyesight can cope with this. I do not know what your eye condition is but for most of my working life I have been involved with the rehabilitation of visually impaired people and towards the end of my working life I ran the low vision clinic at out local hospital.

 

My own 0 gauge layout can be found elsewhere on RMweb under 7mm+modelling/The Ramchester Chronicles and was featured in Railway Modeller for April 2020. I have posted a picture below for your interest.

Thank you Simon for giving my layout a plug.

 

Finally if you want some advice on how to cope with poor vision please feel free to contact me via a PM.

 

Rod

 

thats a lovely scene and stock  ,thank you for the offer i may be in touch ! 

 

happy modeling everyone .

[Nearholmer]

To get a feel for what working in the scale is like, it might be worth forgetting about trains for a minute, and tackling a small model building instead. You can always plonk it on a shelf as an ornament if you decide to proceed no further.

 

I’ve recently nearly finished a Peco signal box kit, and I would certainly recommend that as a good one to try, and it so happens that has been done with one eye shut, because I have had a series of problems with my right eye over the past few years that make it more trouble than it’s worth for close work and reading.

 

Best wishes, Kevin

 

 

[Clan Mcadder]

2 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

To get a feel for what working in the scale is like, it might be worth forgetting about trains for a minute, and tackling a small model building instead. You can always plonk it on a shelf as an ornament if you decide to proceed no further.

 

I’ve recently nearly finished a Peco signal box kit, and I would certainly recommend that as a good one to try, and it so happens that has been done with one eye shut, because I have had a series of problems with my right eye over the past few years that make it more trouble than it’s worth for close work and reading.

 

Best wishes, Kevin

 

 

Hi Kevin ,  yes i had thought about trying one of the huts or as you said the signal box . 

[Hal Nail]

8 minutes ago, Clan Mcadder said:

As for space  it will be small , now i am thinking 6x2/8x2 ,

Hi,

 

I feel I should warn you that is really tiny - I test my locos on a couple of lengths of flexi which is about 6 foot and its a struggle not to run off the end. A 121 is 18 inches long so even that would only travel a few times is own length - if running is your thing you could quickly tire of it. Most who start threads on moving up appear to have underestimated the space needed.

 

All this said, I don't actually have a layout at all but enjoy detailing and weathering so I'm not trying to put you off. The heft and detail you can get in 7mm does make these models attractive just as display pieces. There is always a steady stream of largely unused locos on eBay and since you can always ship things on again, you can effectively try for free. 

 

 

[Nearholmer]

The hut is so simple that frankly I wouldn’t bother, unless you need a hut. You could genuinely assemble it with both eyes shut, although painting it might be difficult. The SB has enough content that it will give a proper feel for the job.

 

As to minimum layout size that will sustain interest: I built a modest urban terminus in 8ft x 1.5ft, using minimum radius the same as Peco set-track, which is fun to operate, but that does need a small fiddle-yard too.

 

One option to consider is pre-grouping era, because some trains were very short, but visually interesting. I think Dapol are about to make models of cramped urban scenes on the LBSCR very easy, by making r-t-r Stroudley 4W coaches. Pre-grouping Isle of Wight would be wonderful.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 8, 2022 by Nearholmer

[Mol_PMB]

My industrial shunting layout is an ‘inglenook plus’ and has a scenic portion just under 6’ long, plus a 2-road sector plate. Total length just under 8’ long, and the width is 18”. 

 

It’s not finished yet, but these photos will give you an idea of what can be achieved in that space without feeling too crowded:

 

 

 

All my previous layouts have been far too ambitious and I’ve never got close to finishing any of them. This is a much more manageable project. 

 

Mol

[Clan Mcadder]

1 minute ago, Mol_PMB said:

My industrial shunting layout is an ‘inglenook plus’ and has a scenic portion just under 6’ long, plus a 2-road sector plate. Total length just under 8’ long, and the width is 18”. 

 

It’s not finished yet, but these photos will give you an idea of what can be achieved in that space without feeling too crowded:

 

 

 

All my previous layouts have been far too ambitious and I’ve never got close to finishing any of them. This is a much more manageable project. 

 

Mol

AHHHH yes , i must admit its been seeing your layout over the past few weeks that has been the nudging elbow to the side , i have been toying with the idea of something very similar . 

 

40 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

The hut is so simple that frankly I wouldn’t bother, unless you need a hut. You could genuinely assemble it with both eyes shut, although painting it might be difficult. The SB has enough content that it will give a proper feel for the job.

 

As to minimum layout size that will sustain interest: I built a modest urban terminus in 8ft x 1.5ft, using minimum radius the same as Peco set-track, which is fun to operate, but that does need a small fiddle-yard too.

 

One option to consider is pre-grouping era, because some trains were very short, but visually interesting. I think Dapol are about to make models of cramped urban scenes on the LBSCR very easy, by making r-t-r Stroudley 4W coaches. Pre-grouping Isle of Wight would be wonderful.

 

 

 

 

the isle of wight is another idea flowing in my head , yes the hut does look simple but i also would like one on the layout as it were as scratch building buildings is not my thing at all kits are they way to go and they seem few and far between and a small layout only needs a couple of items . 

[doilum]

Frydale was built as insurance against future infirmaries. Measuring 84x20" it has only thee points worked by manual rodding to the front of the layout. The length was restricted so that it would be easily accommodated in a bedroom, meantime it provides a permanent test track in my modelling space. The buildings and scenery were always intended to represent my best ability. If I get to build another, great. If not, "they will do" as we say in God's own country. Although wagons make an appearance, the main purpose is to create an inglenook puzzle with four or five small locos. This gets round the problem of uncoupling which I suspect might be your first challenge.

Good luck with the project and consider joining a club or finding a hobby buddy to make good progress quickly.

 

[Simond]

13 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

Hi,

 

I feel I should warn you that is really tiny - I test my locos on a couple of lengths of flexi which is about 6 foot and its a struggle not to run off the end. A 121 is 18 inches long so even that would only travel a few times is own length - if running is your thing you could quickly tire of it. Most who start threads on moving up appear to have underestimated the space needed.

 

I think that 8’ is probably the minimum to do anything useful.  My smallest loco is an Ixion Fowler, it’s 160mm long, a typical 4W wagon is 140-150mm.  To shunt, you need at least 310mm from the blade end of the points to the buffers, which are another 80mm.  A Peco wye point is 380mm long but that doesn’t get you to the clearance point, you probably need another 50-80mm.  And you obviously need a wagon length in the sidings too.  And the sidings need buffer stops.
 

I make that just over a metre, to allow you shunt a single wagon from one short siding to another, using a tiny loco, which probably doesn’t have much entertainment value.  
 

If you want a passing loop, you’ll need headshunts each end, though one of them can be only long enough for a loco, the other needs space for a few wagons too, say 450mm (18”).  The blade-to-clearance point dimension is about 450mm and you’ll need two of them.  So in 8’ you could get a loop, about 2’6” long with a headshunt either end.  With addition of a couple of sidings, you could have enough space to play with half a dozen wagons and one or even two locos, and maybe a bit of scenic enhancement.

 

These measurements are not based on using set-track, which has a tighter radius, and therefore gives you a shorter point and will gain an inch or two.  I think you can download and print templates from Peco, might be worth doing that before splashing out.  
 

Or just treat yourself to the loco of your dreams, and see what happens…
 

 

Edited March 8, 2022 by Simond

[37114]

I switched to 7mm for the same reasons (deteriorating eyesight) and love it. I wasn't sure how I would get on at first so bought a Dapol 08 and a couple of slaters kits which got me a small train for less than £300. The biggest adjustment for me was getting used to what does and doesn't fit in the space as my sense of scale was still in 4mm world for the first few months. Also I found that many of the suppliers are (by the nature of the smaller market) small independents so required some finding but Invertrain and Severn Models are 2 worth looking at.

 

I have limited space so my layout is 18inches by 5ft scenic with a 4ft fiddly yard but you could compress it to 8 ft, I have never had a problem with getting bored with the small size of it.

I also manage to squeeze in a mainline loco....

 

Link here: 

 

 

 

 

[Clan Mcadder]

43 minutes ago, 37114 said:

I switched to 7mm for the same reasons (deteriorating eyesight) and love it. I wasn't sure how I would get on at first so bought a Dapol 08 and a couple of slaters kits which got me a small train for less than £300. The biggest adjustment for me was getting used to what does and doesn't fit in the space as my sense of scale was still in 4mm world for the first few months. Also I found that many of the suppliers are (by the nature of the smaller market) small independents so required some finding but Invertrain and Severn Models are 2 worth looking at.

 

I have limited space so my layout is 18inches by 5ft scenic with a 4ft fiddly yard but you could compress it to 8 ft, I have never had a problem with getting bored with the small size of it.

I also manage to squeeze in a mainline loco....

 

 

Hi Guys , 

 

yes to be honest that's the sort of thing i am after , small and delightfully grotty ,  or the whole other way and rural and rundown haha. how long is the center headshunt ? as ive come up with a plan very close to this on anyrail using the bull head wye points , also daft question is it the standard code 100 fish plates to join the code 124 bull head? 

 

Ok so eye update after a lovely 6 and half hour wait in the hospital , ive found out that i need two ops on my eye to stop the progression of decline and then one on the right eye to stop it early . but the main point is its not going to get much better ,so it does mean that ive decide to make the switch now i will go through my 00 collection and anything thats not sentimental or useful to my dad is going up for sale .

 

now a layout is a few months off but i am tempted to buy some stock now and have it in stock as so to speak so when the time comes i can have a play . i am drawn to the sentinel for both its short size and price but i am not sure in the long run that's what i really like as its a shed on wheels , the 08 or terrier/pannier would be better ?

 

also would i need a new controller to run just a single loco , ive got model D, and hm duettes would these be ok ? 

 

many thanks every one  

 

[Mol_PMB]

For small O gauge locos on light shunting duties, I’d say you can use your existing controller. 

 

As for locos, have a bit more of a think about what sort of prototype you’re going for, before splashing out. As well as Dapol it’s worth looking at Heljan, Ixion and Minerva for small RTR O gauge locos. Between them, there’s quite a good choice of main-line and industrial, steam and diesel.

Ixion are no longer made but often available on ebay and they are super models. The Fowler diesel is small but very characterful, as is the Hudswell Clarke saddle tank. 

Heljan class 03 and 05 can be had pretty cheaply too, and there’s an 02 on the way. All were widely used in industry too. 

 

Mol

[Mol_PMB]

Sorry, duplicated post

Edited March 9, 2022 by Mol_PMB

[birdseyecircus]

At just 60 inches long my folding layout still provides plenty of Interest 

 

Paul

 

[Clan Mcadder]

well its happend ive done the deed and brought a few bits to build a small starter layout to see how it all goes , ive decided  on a GWR theme in the west midlands as it close to heart and home. tho for now ive got the green sentinel to play with until i get a 14xx or pannier tank . so i would like to thank everyone for their help and advice which i am sure i will continue to ask repeatedly .  . 

[F-UnitMad]

You can, of course, go stupidly small with O Scale...

Lyddlow Goods, all 4ft 8in of it including fiddlestick...

 

 

I have actually exhibited it at a couple of one-day shows. I put a sign in front of it -

"No room for a layout? Try O Scale!!"

 

It started many conversations, even with people who thought it was far too small & would be dull as ditchwater to operate.