US trackwork

[MarshLane]

Afternoon guys,

I am about to start hand-building some pointwork for my US layout - the new version of which should feature quite a big wagon sorting yard area.  Can anyone tell me what size turnouts companies like NS/BNSF/UP use in yards and can anyone give me any details about sleeper spacing for US pointwork?  All help gratefully accepted....

 

Rich

[F-UnitMad]

A website that will help, with printable switch templates:-

https://www.handlaidtrack.com/track-templates-ho-turnouts

[MarshLane]

1 hour ago, F-UnitMad said:

A website that will help, with printable switch templates:-

https://www.handlaidtrack.com/track-templates-ho-turnouts

 

Thanks - sorry I should have said I am modelling N gauge .. but still - the info should help, thank you!

 

EDIT: Ah just noticed they do the drawings in various scales, including N - https://www.handlaidtrack.com/track-templates-n for anyone else looking!

Edited March 13, 2022 by MarshLane

[mdvle]

4 hours ago, MarshLane said:

I am about to start hand-building some pointwork for my US layout - the new version of which should feature quite a big wagon sorting yard area.  Can anyone tell me what size turnouts companies like NS/BNSF/UP use in yards and can anyone give me any details about sleeper spacing for US pointwork?  All help gratefully accepted....

 

Simple answer - almost all modellers use turnouts that are much sharper than the real railroads both because our model trains can (generally) handle it but also because "space".

 

Even in N space will likely be an issue, and so turnouts will be just one of many compromises.

 

Each railroad creates it's own standards, but here is a CSX document for sidings to an industry - where they specify a minimum of a #10 and a minimum radius (without needing approval) of what works out to 80" in HO.  None of us can typically meet those minimums in HO or N for a siding - it simply takes up too much space and looks wrong.

https://www.csx.com/index.cfm/library/files/customers/industrial-development/site-design-guidelines-and-specifications/

 

So if you go with a #10 for a yard, most of us quickly find far too much space is occupied by the switch ladder - hence why many use a #6 and why micro-engineering offered a #5 turnout set for yards in HO.

 

So unless you are absolutely determined to be 100% prototypical and find the correct standards for your chosen prototype and have a huge space (even in N), simply go with what works for you and looks good - take advantage of those track templates and print an assortment out and play around with them and see what looks best for you.

 

 

[MarshLane]

@mdvleThanks for that. Yes totally agree its always compromises, I am still learning with the US stuff - spending far too long watching the Tehachapi and Barstow cameras(!) but a recent video that a friend sent me of BNSF shunting in Barstow yard, I couldn't put into perspective the size of the pointwork that US railroads use in yards, compared to the UK, hence the question.  I am fortunate in now having a large area for the layout, but also have something of a OTT fascination for trying to get it right!

 

I have attached the video below if anyone else is interested and wants to take a look...

 

Rich

 

 

 

[long island jack]

You'll save a bit building your own track and switches, what you'll save can go towards all those freight car you'll need to fill such a large yard, not many stockist of N gauge in the UK!!

[mdvle]

Regarding stockists of N in the UK - only an issue if you need something right now.  If you can wait for an order then any of the retailers in the UK who deal with Walthers and Horizon (Athearn) can order anything you want.

 

But long island jack does bring up a good point, as you plan a yard calculate how many additional freight cars will be needed for each additional track and consider whether your budget can handle that in whatever time span you plan to spend on building the layout - you may find a smaller yard doesn't just fit space better but the budget even if it doesn't provide all the operating you would like.

 

As for yards and switches, like I said there doesn't appear to be any actual information for any of the railroads online.  Several people have posted that yards are #10 and mainline is #20 but that is probably at best an approximation.  You can see a discussion on it here https://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/p/276515/3157530.aspx

 

Another useful option is to use satellite view in Google Maps and measure things.  Looking at Barstow I found an 8 track segment of yard where measuring from where those 8 tracks start to curve inward to the end of the last switch works out to 470' - which gives you about 3' in N after dividing by 160.

 

Would replicating that on a layout look good?  Maybe.  More likely it would look wrong and it might get annoying to operate as you need to negotiate 3' of space to get from the yard lead to the track you want to leave/get freight cars from, but it really depends on the person building and operating the layout.

 

Which brings us back to my suggestion - play around with paper and see what works best for what you would like to achieve and the space you have.

 

Edited March 14, 2022 by mdvle

[MarshLane]

7 hours ago, long island jack said:

You'll save a bit building your own track and switches, what you'll save can go towards all those freight car you'll need to fill such a large yard, not many stockist of N gauge in the UK!!

 

Hi, oh tell me about it I must admit I have concentrated on freight cars more than locos (now have 21 in the fleet) for the past couple of years and have been gradually building the fleet up. I am fortunate in some respects that I have been slowly selling my UK O Gauge fleet off, which has generated a good amount of funds for this project, and will shortly start selling my UK N gauge collection, so thankfully the funds are not coming out of savings ... I would not be popular  

 

I have enough Bethgon Coalporter hoppers now to put two 34 car trains together (around 11ft in length), and the first intermodal set is not far off a similar length, and the automotive tri-deck set about half way there (they are expensive wagons - thank god for the 2nd hand market!).  As for various manifest vehicles my current total is around 52 cars, so I do have a fair way to go as the yard should have 15 sorting sidings, based on my current Templot drawing (which will need tweaking given the discussion about pointwork above).  The siding lengths in the yard on the layout will be around 12ft - my actual length of the layout is 21ft, so there is the potential for them to end up a little longer.  Total scenic run should be around 85ft, so plenty of space to keep me occupied on scenics for a while!   The hidden sidings are all pencilled in at 15ft long to give room for lead locos as well as mid-train and rear DPUs - although the latter two will all be dependent on getting the various DCC values right so that everything runs smoothly together.

 

I have tried small layouts in the past, UK based, and lost interest as I found that to keep it interesting for the operator during an afternoons running, the number of trains needed was not prototypical for that kind of branch, where as this layout will hopefully combine a few ideas, with the hidden sidings and main lines more on an auto control, which is another aspect I have wanted to play around with for a few years.  The depot and yard will all be manually controlled.

 

As for UK stockists, I am always happy to support them and try to do so where I can, but the past couple of years, I have tended to save up as much as I can, then have a spending spreed stateside, using a US dollar debit card. The packages are all collated at a shipping facility in the US over a two or three week period, where they repack and ship over to me in one bigger box using FedEx.  Done that a few times now, and its worked really well - both in terms of shipping, import costs etc.  Far more cost effective than individual packages coming over, and in many cases when all costs are included its worked out cheaper.  Also if I time it right, transferring money to my US dollar card at the times when £1 GBP gets you maximum dollars, can give the ability to acquire an extra wagon at no extra cost!!

 

Its an each to their own thing I suppose, but I want this layout to work, be fun to run and as accurate and realistic as I can make it, so I am in no rush - hence the thought of hand-built track. As well as keeping the costs down it means that the track work flows much better.

 

6 hours ago, mdvle said:

Regarding stockists of N in the UK - only an issue if you need something right now.  If you can wait for an order then any of the retailers in the UK who deal with Walthers and Horizon (Athearn) can order anything you want.

Yes that's true - I am lucky at the moment in being able to steadily build up the fleet while the layout is being built.  The one thing I am struggling to find in N is the centre spine wagons that are used for moving large quantities of wood and the like around.

 

6 hours ago, mdvle said:

Another useful option is to use satellite view in Google Maps and measure things.  Looking at Barstow I found an 8 track segment of yard where measuring from where those 8 tracks start to curve inward to the end of the last switch works out to 470' - which gives you about 3' in N after dividing by 160.

 

Would replicating that on a layout look good?  Maybe.  More likely it would look wrong and it might get annoying to operate as you need to negotiate 3' of space to get from the yard lead to the track you want to leave/get freight cars from, but it really depends on the person building and operating the layout.

Thanks - I hadn't actually realised you could measure in Google Maps. I'll take a look at that.  There is noway I have to space to get anything like Barstow (nor do I have the budget to fill it!!) but my aim is to give the impression that it is part of a bigger interchange yard.  I have looked at a couple of the NS yards as well, that are much smaller for inspiration, so I might go and do some measuring.

 

I have been playing about with ideas and track plans for several months as the possibility to move from a portable layout to a fixed space was an outside option that has now (to my surprise) become confirmed.  So from those numerous bits of paper, I drew up a base plan in Templot to establish that I could get the siding lengths that I wanted, while still having space for the main line running length. One aim was to be able to run long freights and steady realistic speeds, as I commented I spend time with the Tehachapi cameras on in the background when at home and would love to be able to create a vision that is similar to what I see on the cameras - in terms of train formations.  But no, I am not planning on trying to run prototypical 114 car freights!  The coal workings will be a bit of a Rule #1 but they are a flow that is close to my heart (not PC in the modern world I know!) but having been involved in the UK rail industry focusing on coal there is a strong connection there. Many will probably think I am mad, maybe they are right, but as long as there is enjoyment in the hobby your doing, I dont think it matters!

 

Thanks to @mdvle for keeping us up to date with new items being released - I do monitor that thread regularly.

 

Rich

Edited March 14, 2022 by MarshLane

[stivesnick]

If your looking for N gauge wagons, Hattons has a good selection of secondhand American wagons, nearly 200 on their web-site, although not so many are modern cars, but worth a look.

 

Regards

 

Nick 

[mdvle]

32 minutes ago, MarshLane said:

Yes that's true - I am lucky at the moment in being able to steadily build up the fleet while the layout is being built.  The one thing I am struggling to find in N is the centre spine wagons that are used for moving large quantities of wood and the like around.

 

Not called centre spine cars - spine cars are used for carrying truck trailers and/or containers.

 

What you are after are typically called a Center Beam Flat Car and both Microtrains and Intermountain (I think based on Google) have offered them in the past - like this out of stock example http://www.tophobbytrains.com/05300530centerbeamflatcarcanadiannational-cna623052nscale.aspx

 

For anyone unfamiliar with what the various types of freight cars are called a browse of the manufactures of the real thing may help if you can't find them on a model manufacturers website.  Examples include National Steel Car  https://www.steelcar.com/ or Freight Car America https://freightcaramerica.com/

 

 

32 minutes ago, MarshLane said:

Thanks - I hadn't actually realised you could measure in Google Maps. I'll take a look at that.

 

Make sure you have the entire length you want to measure on screen, then place your mouse at the starting point.

 

Right click will create a menu, the bottom entry will be "measure distance"

 

Then simply click the other end of what you want to measure and a line will appear in place and Google will provide the distance in metres and feet.

 

Another right click will provide a "clear measurement" option to reset things.

 

Useful to measure all sorts of things - platform lengths, building dimensions, etc.

 

32 minutes ago, MarshLane said:

The coal workings will be a bit of a Rule #1 but they are a flow that is close to my heart (not PC in the modern world I know!)

 

Coal is still a very big part of US railroading so regardless of ones feelings you really can't avoid it if attempting to be realistic in modeling.

 

[melmerby]

On 14/03/2022 at 23:16, mdvle said:

 

 

Coal is still a very big part of US railroading so regardless of ones feelings you really can't avoid it if attempting to be realistic in modeling.

 

Kearney NE has regular long coal trains (UP) and the returning empties, several times a day.

 

Live cam

 

Earlier today

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 6, 2022 by melmerby

[MarshLane]

1 hour ago, mdvle said:

 

Not called centre spine cars - spine cars are used for carrying truck trailers and/or containers.

 

What you are after are typically called a Center Beam Flat Car and both Microtrains and Intermountain (I think based on Google) have offered them in the past - like this out of stock example http://www.tophobbytrains.com/05300530centerbeamflatcarcanadiannational-cna623052nscale.aspx

 

For anyone unfamiliar with what the various types of freight cars are called a browse of the manufactures of the real thing may help if you can't find them on a model manufacturers website.  Examples include National Steel Car  https://www.steelcar.com/ or Freight Car America https://freightcaramerica.com/

 

Rule of this post is never post when you are home from work and tired! Sorry I knew that, Centre Beam was what I was thinking when I typed centre spine!! But thanks I hadn't realised the Intermountain had done them, I'll keep my eyes peeled for that.  As ever, thanks for the other info too.

 

 

1 hour ago, mdvle said:

Coal is still a very big part of US railroading so regardless of ones feelings you really can't avoid it if attempting to be realistic in modeling.

 

Very true - I should have said the layout will be based California way, hence my comment about coal being Rule #1 - I have seen the occasional train load at Barstow, enough to make it valid!, but it is few and far between there.  However, we have gained a Norfolk Southern through working intermodal flow recently, so there is a reason for NS power to appear  

 

Rich  

 

[MarshLane]

14 hours ago, stivesnick said:

If your looking for N gauge wagons, Hattons has a good selection of secondhand American wagons, nearly 200 on their web-site, although not so many are modern cars, but worth a look.

Nick 

 

Thanks Nick,

As you say not many modern cars, but I have acquired two vehicles for the manifest fleet that are now sat in the Trunk!  Thanks for the tip off.

Rich

[MarshLane]

Does anyone happen to know if there is any difference between MicroEngineering Code 40 rail and the Code 40 available from the 2mm Association?  I doubt there is much, and am thinking that the 2FS rail is easier to get hold of (I am member) than ME Code 40.

 

Rich

[Regularity]

Is the 2mm Association rail bullhead or flat bottom?

 

Here is a table from the Fasttracks website:

 

 

[MarshLane]

Hi @Regularity, you can get both, but I am proposing flat bottom rail, which being Code 40 is 0.040" tall, so going off that table, I assume it is similar (or of no difference) to the ME.

 

Rich

[Regularity]

You need to consider the width of the head more than the width of the base (the latter being less obvious), but I expect they are fairly similar.

[Talbotjohn]

For the record I found this information when researching in the 1980’s.

typical rail length 39’, welded rail came in 1950’s.

sleepers 7”x9”x8’6” or 6”x8”x 8’ 0”.

oak, pine or gum wood or Cypress or what was available locally!

sleeper spacing typically 3200 per mile but Great Northern used 2000 per mile.

3200 per mile works out at about 23 -24 per 39’ section. I wonder how Peco 83 or 70 Line track compares in HO scale?

The TTI System, a short line linking Paris (L&N) with Maysfield (C&O) used a mix of 150 and 105lb rail (Code 83 and 70 in HO scale). When they took over the line rather than replace all the sleepers they replaced every third one in the first instance and started running trains - 2  boxcars loaded with fertiliser or 16 loaded coal hoppers twice daily.

[Talbotjohn]

Sorry should be Maysville (C&O) not Maysfield.

[flubrush]

I dug up some information on UP industrial trackage which I used to build my S scale switching layout some years ago.   The main index page is here :-

 

https://www.up.com/emp/engineering/apps/archives/standards/public/index.cfm

 

...and if you click on "Turnouts and Turnout Components" you get a choice of subjects pertaining to turnouts.

 

I used this information to set up templates in Templot and everything worked very well.

 

Jim.

[dave1905]

I would suggest using #6 switches for the yard.  Real yards use #10 or larger but that will be waaaaay overkill for a model railroad.  

 

Most of the coal to California was going for export, we used to have a few moves to LA but the stopped in the 1990's.

 

Modern ties are larger than those in the 1950's.  They don't use 8 ft ties very much anymore, most main track ties are 9 ft and yard ties are 8'6" on 24 in or so spacing.  Standard UP main track rail weight is 136 lb.

 

The UP was part of a run through intermodal service between Atlanta and LA.  It operated over the NS to Mississippi, then over the KCS to Shreveport and the UP to LA.  LASER service.  

[MarshLane]

8 hours ago, dave1905 said:

I would suggest using #6 switches for the yard.  Real yards use #10 or larger but that will be waaaaay overkill for a model railroad.  

 

Most of the coal to California was going for export, we used to have a few moves to LA but the stopped in the 1990's.

 

Modern ties are larger than those in the 1950's.  They don't use 8 ft ties very much anymore, most main track ties are 9 ft and yard ties are 8'6" on 24 in or so spacing.  Standard UP main track rail weight is 136 lb.

 

The UP was part of a run through intermodal service between Atlanta and LA.  It operated over the NS to Mississippi, then over the KCS to Shreveport and the UP to LA.  LASER service.  

 

Dave,

That is superb, many thanks for the background information as well.

Rich

[Regularity]

Thing to remember is that model turnouts tend to be (much) sharper than on the prototype, and this is increasingly the case the more recent your prototype.