'Printing' a Gloucester wagon

[Buhar]

Hi @Andy Vincent

 

Not wishing to clutter or divert the D299 thread with specifics about your kits I thought resurrecting this thread might be more appropriate.

 

Is there anywhere where the build dates of the various Gloucester wagons you feature can be found?

 

Also, POWSides don't give dimensions for their transfers, so I suspect they're one size only and so not going to be suitable for all three of the lengths you do via Brassmasters.

 

Thanks

Alan 

 

[KeithMacdonald]

Here's a Gloucester wagon I'd very much like to print, but have absolutely no idea where to start.

It's Major Edwards horsebox, for his stables in Ogbourne Maizey.

The sign (bottom right) looks like it says "Gloucester Carriage & Wagon Company Limited", but the date is unclear.

 

[billbedford]

That is one of the horseboxes built for the GCR and CLC between 1898 and 1902. There are drawings in Historic Carriage Drawings Vol 3.

 

There maybe some kits available, D&S?

 

 

Edited March 2 by billbedford

[Compound2632]

3 hours ago, billbedford said:

That is one of the horseboxes built for the GCR and CLC between 1898 and 1902. There are drawings in Historic Carriage Drawings Vol 3.

 

Richard Kelham's Private Owner Wagons of Wiltshire (Lightmoor Press, 2021) has this photo; the horsebox was indeed photographed at, and hence presumably supplied by, Gloucester RC&W Co., in April 1902, to an order of December 1901. Supposing they built it new, is it a direct copy of the GCR design and if so, how? Did Gloucester build any of the GCR / CLC vehicles? Or is the similarity just coincidence?

 

Those are very unusual axleboxes - I've never seen the like. Are they a GCR pattern, or a type used by Gloucester, maybe for vehicles built for export?

[billbedford]

Based on later LNER practice, my understanding was that the GCR built the boxes and were then hired out to the racehorse owners. 

 

The axleboxes are a Gorton design which seems to date back to the mid-1880s. 

Edited March 2 by billbedford

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, billbedford said:

Based on later LNER practice, my understanding was that the GCR built the boxes and were then hired out to the racehorse owners. 

 

The axleboxes are a Gorton design which seems to date back to the mid-1880s. 

 

Interesting. Then was the Gloucester Co. acting as agent for the GCR? The horsebox is certainly devoid of any of the usual Gloucester plates.

[billbedford]

I wasn't too clear in my answer. Gloster built 57 of these horseboxes for the GCR, plus some for the CLC. Some were then hired from the GCR by several racehorse owners. 

[Compound2632]

24 minutes ago, billbedford said:

I wasn't too clear in my answer. Gloster built 57 of these horseboxes for the GCR, plus some for the CLC. Some were then hired from the GCR by several racehorse owners. 

 

Aha, that makes sense. So Gloucester's photo is of a newly-built GCR horsebox turned out lettered for Maj. Edwards, who is hiring it from the GCR. 

 

I wonder how that fits with Richard's mention of an order of Dec 1901? @wagonman

 

So, for @KeithMacdonald, there's hope, as a GCR / CLC horsebox might be of more interest to a 3D designer/printer than a one off!

[KeithMacdonald]

7 hours ago, billbedford said:

That is one of the horseboxes built for the GCR and CLC between 1898 and 1902. There are drawings in Historic Carriage Drawings Vol 3.

There maybe some kits available, D&S?

 

Do these qualify?

 

Diagram number: GCR IX4, LNER-C 221, later Code 5194.

Copyright © Steve Banks

Ref : https://www.steve-banks.org/gcr/334-gcr-horse-box

Also : https://www.steve-banks.org/modelling/131-gcr-horse-boxes

Brassmasters version: https://www.brassmasters.co.uk/gcr_horsebox.htm

 

 

[billbedford]

Yep that's the one. 

 

I wonder by what circumstances S. Banks could legally lawfully claim copyright on a LNER diagram. 

Edited March 3 by billbedford

[wagonman]

On 02/03/2024 at 18:31, Compound2632 said:

 

Aha, that makes sense. So Gloucester's photo is of a newly-built GCR horsebox turned out lettered for Maj. Edwards, who is hiring it from the GCR. 

 

I wonder how that fits with Richard's mention of an order of Dec 1901? @wagonman

 

So, for @KeithMacdonald, there's hope, as a GCR / CLC horsebox might be of more interest to a 3D designer/printer than a one off!

 

The Gloucester Agendas, notoriously terse, merely state "11 December 1901; new cash; George Edwards one horse box" which rather implies they built it though I suppose they could have been acting as intermediaries. It also implies ownership by Edwards rather than mere hire.

 

The railway companies were forbidden from building locomotives for sale to other railways/operators – did this also apply to rolling stock? One assumes it did due to the lack of any known examples – a bit of a black swan argument.

 

The MSWJR did own three horseboxes described as "ex-privately owned" – this one was not included in that trio.

 

 

Richard

Edited March 3 by wagonman

[Dave John]

It can get very complicated, certainly the CR built wagons for private traders. The situation is further complicated by wagons built by the CR and then Thirled or hired to a particular company.  Add into the mix wagons built by wagon builders for the CR and then thirled or hired to other companies and you have a lot of different angles. Oh, and wagons built by other wagon builders for other owners which went bust without paying for them which were sold to the CR .... 

 

Much more can be found in "More on caledonian wagons " by Mike Williams. 

[Compound2632]

7 hours ago, wagonman said:

The Gloucester Agendas, notoriously terse, merely state "11 December 1901; new cash; George Edwards one horse box" which rather implies they built it though I suppose they could have been acting as intermediaries. It also implies ownership by Edwards rather than mere hire.

 

So to me, that would imply that Gloucester built one extra horsebox on their Great Central order which they sold to Edwards, i.e. this particular vehicle was never Great Central property.

 

7 hours ago, wagonman said:

The railway companies were forbidden from building locomotives for sale to other railways/operators – did this also apply to rolling stock? One assumes it did due to the lack of any known examples – a bit of a black swan argument.

 

But it was by no means unknown to use the work-around whereby private builders built to railway company designs for third parties - the Belgian Dunalastairs being the classic example. But it's not clear to me whether in such cases any benefit accrued to the railway company - these days one would expect a licensing fee.

 

 

[wagonman]

5 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

So to me, that would imply that Gloucester built one extra horsebox on their Great Central order which they sold to Edwards, i.e. this particular vehicle was never Great Central property.

 

 

 

That's my thinking too. They had just built a batch of these horse boxes for the GCR so had the drawings (and jigs?) to hand, so it was the obvious choice of design when they received the order from Edwards. And as you say, no involvement of the GCR at all.

 

Richard

Edited March 4 by wagonman

[wagonman]

5 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

But it was by no means unknown to use the work-around whereby private builders built to railway company designs for third parties - the Belgian Dunalastairs being the classic example. 

 

 

 

Another example is the Highland Castles built for the French Ouest.

[billbedford]

6 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

So to me, that would imply that Gloucester built one extra horsebox on their Great Central order which they sold to Edwards, i.e. this particular vehicle was never Great Central property.

 

 

Except Gorton seems to have provided Gloucester with components for these horseboxes, i.e. the unique axleboxes and possibly other ironwork. 

 

I don't suppose we will know unless someone looks into the relationship between George Edwards and the GCR. 

Edited March 4 by billbedford

[wagonman]

2 hours ago, billbedford said:

 

Except Gorton seems to have provided Gloucester with components for these horseboxes, i.e. the unique axleboxes and possibly other ironwork. 

 

I don't suppose we will know unless someone looks into the relationship between George Edwards and the GCR. 

 

I concede Bill's point about the axleboxes, and probably other fittings, which must have been supplied by Gorton.

 

The most obvious connection is Sam Fay. He was, up to 1899, Secretary and General Manager of the MSWJR upon whose line Edward(e)s' stable was located. It is conceivable that the men knew each other, though at the time of the horse box order Fay was back at Nine Elms. He took up his position as General Manager of the GCR in 1902. The timeline is not quite perfect!

 

 

Edited March 4 by wagonman

[Compound2632]

36 minutes ago, wagonman said:

I concede Bill's point about the axleboxes, and probably other fittings, which must have been supplied by Gorton.

 

Might not Gorton have supplied patterns or drawings rather than the actual castings?

[wagonman]

25 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Might not Gorton have supplied patterns or drawings rather than the actual castings?

 

As Gloucester were building over 60 of the things it may well have made sense for them to cast the axleboxes themselves using patterns sent from Gorton. I am not familiar enough with the conventions of such transactions to be more definitive.