What was the contemporary view of the Grouping?

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, lanchester said:

Government had powers anyway, dating back to mid-Victorian times (Gladstone before he was PM?) to nationalise individual companies under some circumstances.

 

Indeed, in the wake of the 1866 banking crisis Daniel Gooch as Chairman of the Great Western led a deputation of representatives of impoverished railway companies (the South Eastern was one) to Lord Derby begging to be nationalised.

  

[Mike Storey]

30 minutes ago, turbos said:

I believe Carlisle did have the most pre-grouping companies sharing a station, three Scottish: CR, GSWR and NB, four English: LNWR, MR, NER and M&C. Carlisle Citadel must have been a very colourful sight with all the different locomotive and carriage liveries!

 

Brian.

 

Yes, I think that is true, but as an equal. There was a debate on Rail Forum some years ago, which suggested York might have been the other, with 7 sharing the station: NER (from the original ), GN (with running rights from 1848), MR (from 1879), L&Y (from 1884), LNW (from 1893), GC (from 1898) and the GE (from 1892). It was also suggested GW might also be included, as they had through trains, but perhaps not allowed as the carriages would be hauled by others north of Banbury, or later, Sheffield. The GER were included because they had locos stationed at York for many years.

 

However, as always, debateable!

 

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, Mike Storey said:

However, as always, debateable!

 

York vs. Carlisle will depend how you count. If only companies whose locomotives were routinely present, then it's Carlisle 7, York 6. (At least, that's what I thought; but did Great Central locomotives routinely work into York? I thought their trains were worked by the North Eastern between York and Sheffield?)

 

Once one allows through carriages, it becomes open season, especially if one goes back to the 1880s/90s. There was the well-known Great Western Plymouth through carriage by the West Coast route; L&Y carriages were not unknown on the Midland route between Lancashire and Scotland, at least in the 1880s; but the build up to the Glorious Twelfth would see family carriages, horse boxes, and carriage trucks from such outlandish railways as the Brighton.

[Nearholmer]

2 hours ago, bécasse said:

What intrigues me, though, is that he was only born in June 1909

I’ve wondered about some of his writing on that basis too. First hand accounts of things that must have been when he was only about 3yo, and I way of writing that sort-of implies, but doesn’t quite claim, personal presence before he was born. My assumption is that, yes, he probably did have a very good memory for childhood happenings, but that he also had a rich imagination.

[Compound2632]

15 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

but that he also had a rich imagination.

 

Which is no criticism; it's what we all need if we're setting out to recreate the railway scene we don't personally remember. It's informed imagination, drawing on all the data we can find.

 

He was an early member - and President (?) - of the HMRS.

[D9020 Nimbus]

I wonder… if "British Railways" had been created in the early 1920s, who would have been in charge of locomotive design? Presumably Sir Eric Geddes would have been in charge of the company as a whole. But who would have been CME, and how would the choice have been made?

[The Stationmaster]

I'm not sure if Furness engines worked through to Carlisle but their coacg hing stock probably did.  However as noted by 'turbos' seven companies definitely rah trains into Citadel station.  

 

The next nearest I can immediately think of was Merthyr High Street where trains, and engines, from six different companies could be seen prior to the Grouping.  York will also have ranked fairly high on the list with locos from 5 different companies (where there more?) appearing regularly at one time

[Nearholmer]

Don’t worry: I’m a fan.

 

He wrote genuinely readable railway histories, and better balanced than Nock IMO, because he didn’t go down a rabbit-hole of locomotive performance details quite so often.

 

The modern trend to books that get into excruciating detail, but somehow fail to convey any idea of “how it was” doesn’t do a lot for me, I’m afraid.

[Andy Kirkham]

2 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

The next nearest I can immediately think of was Merthyr High Street where trains, and engines, from six different companies could be seen prior to the Grouping.  York will also have ranked fairly high on the list with locos from 5 different companies (where there more?) appearing regularly at one time

 

1.Taff Vale, 2.GWR, 3.LNWR, 4.Rhymney, 5.Brecon & Merthyr. But I can't think of the sixth.

I'm also wondering what passenger service the Rhymney operated into High Street. Did they have their own Cardiff-Merthyr servoce?

[rodent279]

1 hour ago, lanchester said:

But what did the 'Daily Mail' of the time (which would be, er, the 'Daily Mail') say?

It'd probably blather on much as it does now about Siberian winters, and how we're all doomed because the Socialists eat babies.

[The Stationmaster]

33 minutes ago, Andy Kirkham said:

 

1.Taff Vale, 2.GWR, 3.LNWR, 4.Rhymney, 5.Brecon & Merthyr. But I can't think of the sixth.

I'm also wondering what passenger service the Rhymney operated into High Street. Did they have their own Cardiff-Merthyr servoce?

No. 6 was the Cambrian, coming in over the B&M route/B&M & LNW Jt line.  The Rhymney gained access to Merthyr of the GWR & RR Joint Line from Quakers Yard through Aberfan and Abercanaid up the opposite side of the valley from the TVR line.  The RR was the last company to arrive in Merthyr but operated service of passenger trains to/from Cardiff via Quakers Yard, Ystrad Mynach, and Caerphilly until at least the Grouping.  But it seems to have been the least photographed Company of all those that ran to High Street - it is easier to find a published photo of an LNWR single at High St than it is to find a published photo of any RR engine there 🙄

Edited April 29, 2022 by The Stationmaster

[pH]

6 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Even in the 70s and 80s, in Glasgow and Edinburgh, there were men (yes, they were all male) who wouldn't talk to each other because their respective fathers and/or grandfathers had worked for the Caley or the North British.

In the 1960s, I knew a couple of guys who were great friends - one had worked for the Caledonian (he was a guard and still wore his Caledonian Railway hat) and the other had started on the G&SWR. I think they were united in their feeling of superiority over us “newbies”.

[Michael Hodgson]

4 hours ago, turbos said:

I believe Carlisle did have the most pre-grouping companies sharing a station, three Scottish: CR, GSWR and NB, four English: LNWR, MR, NER and M&C. Carlisle Citadel must have been a very colourful sight with all the different locomotive and carriage liveries!

 

Brian.

And it also saw the WCJS and the Mid/GSWR through coaches!

[Compound2632]

28 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

And it also saw the WCJS and the Mid/GSWR through coaches!

 

Well if we're go to count that way, not just the M&GSW Joint Stock but also the M&NB Joint Stock - the only Joint Stock to remain so after the grouping.

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Well if we're go to count that way, not just the M&GSW Joint Stock but also the M&NB Joint Stock - the only Joint Stock to remain so after the grouping.

The M&GN survived Grouping though I don't think their stock reached Carlisle.  However I believe the GWR & CR ran through coaches to Bristol or beyond, using each company's carriages altnerate days.

[Compound2632]

10 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

The M&GN survived Grouping 

 

As did the S&DJR and the CLC; all three Joint Committees owned their own carriages but they weren't Joint Stock carriages in the same sense as the WCJS, ECJS, M&GSW and M&NB vehicles were - carriage jointly owned by the two companies for through workings, an arrangement that avoided the need for one partner to pay the other mileage rate hire. The "alternate days" arrangement achieved the same object, though it would be interesting to know what the financial arrangement was with the LNWR, as piggy-in-the-middle.

Edited April 29, 2022 by Compound2632

[Michael Hodgson]

5 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

The "alternate days" arrangement achieved the same object, though it would be interesting to know what the financial arrangement was with the LNWR, as piggy-in-the-middle.

Presumably the RCH just split the fares between all the companies involved pro rata to mileage?

 

[Compound2632]

15 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Presumably the RCH just split the fares between all the companies involved pro rata to mileage?

 

Yes, but in addition the LNWR had had the use of the property of the GWR or CR (on alternate days) in order to earn those fares, so it would have to pay a hire charge based on the mileage of those carriages on its line.

 

The through carriage arrangement could be a doubtful benefit for some of the smaller companies. Consider a through carriage between Manchester and Aberystwyth - a LNWR vehicle making a half its journey over Cambrian metals. The Cambrian would have to pay mileage hire for the carriage and in return get its share of the fares. That would turn a nice profit on a sunny summer Saturday but on a wet winter Wednesday, the carriage might well run empty; the Cambrian still had to pay up.

 

It may be that in such cases an arrangement less burdensome to the smaller company might be reached.

 

Edited April 29, 2022 by Compound2632

[MR Chuffer]

6 hours ago, turbos said:

Carlisle Citadel must have been a very colourful sight with all the different locomotive and carriage liveries!

And there are records of L&Y excursions heading north into Scotland from the northwest pre-WW1.

[Nick_Burman]

The perception of the Grouping varied from railway to railway. As far as I know, the various South Wales lines were dragged kicking and screaming into the GWR.

 

Cheers NB

[Michael Hodgson]

2 hours ago, Nick_Burman said:

The perception of the Grouping varied from railway to railway. As far as I know, the various South Wales lines were dragged kicking and screaming into the GWR.

 

Cheers NB

Nobody understood though, since they were screaming in Welsh!

[kevinlms]

18 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Many years ago I spoke briefly to C.Hamilton ElLis while on an Ian Allan railtour - rather nice of hm to actually spare time to talk to an inquisitive youngster.  Anyway he waxed lyrical about the loss of liveries that went as a result of the Grouping particularly regretting the end of GER blue.

The range of liveries is one thing, but what was the quality of services like once grouping started. From that I mean both passenger & freight services.

Sure the vehicles were the same (in new colour schemes), but did the services run better with combined services and not needing changing trains/locos so frequently? Also many older vehicles were withdrawn and replaced with vehicles that worked through.

 

For instance, the LMS scrapped many pre-group locos that never even carried their LMS assigned numbers. That was even before large fleets of 4P's, 2P's, 3F tanks and 4F's etc. were built.

[Compound2632]

3 hours ago, kevinlms said:

The range of liveries is one thing, but what was the quality of services like once grouping started. From that I mean both passenger & freight services.

Sure the vehicles were the same (in new colour schemes), but did the services run better with combined services and not needing changing trains/locos so frequently? Also many older vehicles were withdrawn and replaced with vehicles that worked through.

 

For instance, the LMS scrapped many pre-group locos that never even carried their LMS assigned numbers. That was even before large fleets of 4P's, 2P's, 3F tanks and 4F's etc. were built.

 

All that was a very gradual process. I don't think any ordinary railway customer, passenger or goods, noticed any difference for perhaps several years. The English pre-grouping companies in the LMS and LNE groups were already co-operating closely; these were very large organisations and institutional change would consequently be slow. It wasn't really until the 1930s that there was significant operational change on the LMS for instance, with Stamp's reforms. There wasn't that much money around for investment in the 1920s, even less after 1928.

[The Stationmaster]

12 hours ago, Nick_Burman said:

The perception of the Grouping varied from railway to railway. As far as I know, the various South Wales lines were dragged kicking and screaming into the GWR.

 

Cheers NB

I think the main shouts from the South Wales companies came from the shareholders of some and the LNWR in respect of one of them (the Rhymney which the LNWR definitely had its eye at one time and which, of course, it used for access to Cardiff).  As far as the ordinary working staff were concerned I think - from what I mentioned about - that many were more than happy to finish up in the GWR because that, if nothing else, meant they would receive an ex-gratia pension on retirement.

[Nick_Burman]

38 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

I think the main shouts from the South Wales companies came from the shareholders of some and the LNWR in respect of one of them (the Rhymney which the LNWR definitely had its eye at one time and which, of course, it used for access to Cardiff).  As far as the ordinary working staff were concerned I think - from what I mentioned about - that many were more than happy to finish up in the GWR because that, if nothing else, meant they would receive an ex-gratia pension on retirement.

 

Yes, I wanted to expand on that but was rather in a hurry. From what I understand of the several South Wales lines, there was much shareholder protesting over the Grouping as they would find their position degraded from being major/main shareholders in the company(ies) they held to being just ordinary shareholders in a much larger concern - ergo little or no voice at the boardroom once inside the GWR (except, of course, if you were the Marquis of Bute...). The railwaymen must have been happy to join the GWR not only because of the pensions, but also because many of the South Wales lines were extremely mean to their staff and the GWR regime must have been a relief by comparison. As for the mine owners I'd hazard thy did not care provided the coal arrived at the docks promptly.

 

Cheers NB