Southern region ferry van trains: what sort of brake vans did they have (if any)?

[hmrspaul]

3 hours ago, teeinox said:

Many thanks for all your replies.  They are most informative.  I found an article on Wikepedia, I think on freight through Dover.  According to that, the traffic imported into Dover via the train ferry included fruit and vegetables, chemicals, and nuclear fuels between the continent and the BNFL complex at Sellafield.  One of the chemical suppiers appeared to be a company called ETRA, based in Zurich.  Exports included china clay from south-west England to Switzerland and steel products from Teesside to France and Spain.  That fits with jonhall drawing attention to the geographical and economic split both in the UK and in continental Europe which influenced the choice of Harwich or Dover for particular traffics.  In addition, apart from the dedicated trains for perishable traffic to Hither Green and sometimes to the LMR (I have an undated photo of a blue class 71 with a "BA" headcode), there were no other trains dedicated to ferry traffic.  Onward distribution otherwise was as individual wagons conveyed in BR's wagonload network.

 

Seem about right?

That's some of it, perhaps some of the more important. But times change, there have been block trains of mineral water - still are - lots of steel, masses of unpleasant chemicals, nuclear as you suggest. ETRA working to Esso Fawley. Have a look through https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/ferrywagons

46 minutes ago, Rivercider said:

Regarding imported oranges in ferry vans, a former BR colleague of mine talked about seasonal wagonload traffic of marmalade oranges which was for the local Italian community. Sadly I cannot remember where he worked before I knew him in Bristol, (but it was somewhere like Bletchley or Bedford, wherever there was a sizeable population of Italian descent), this must have been early 1970s, possibly a little earlier 

 

cheers

I was in Luton one day in the 1980s and there were Italian Interfrigo vans simply stuffed with grapes - completely loose loaded. For the Italian community in the Lea Valley whom made their own wine https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/ferryitalianinterfrigo/e27252bfd [how legally I have no idea]. Cane furniture was stuffed in a bogie VTG van in Guildford one day in 1982. BR would simply drop off wagons at any of these open yards and the owner of the contents came and collected them. There seemed minimal security control over such movements. 

Wine has been important - in bulk tankers. During the 1960s Dubonnet used to arrive at St. Albans (Roses Lime juice factory) and be offloaded over the fence. The traffic was lost to it coming in bulk ships as the popularity of Dubonnet increased in the early 1970s. 

 

Paul

 

Edited June 12, 2022 by hmrspaul

[Simon Lee]

14 hours ago, teeinox said:

Many thanks for all your replies.  They are most informative.  I found an article on Wikepedia, I think on freight through Dover.  According to that, the traffic imported into Dover via the train ferry included fruit and vegetables, chemicals, and nuclear fuels between the continent and the BNFL complex at Sellafield.  One of the chemical suppiers appeared to be a company called ETRA, based in Zurich.  Exports included china clay from south-west England to Switzerland and steel products from Teesside to France and Spain.  That fits with jonhall drawing attention to the geographical and economic split both in the UK and in continental Europe which influenced the choice of Harwich or Dover for particular traffics.  In addition, apart from the dedicated trains for perishable traffic to Hither Green and sometimes to the LMR (I have an undated photo of a blue class 71 with a "BA" headcode), there were no other trains dedicated to ferry traffic.  Onward distribution otherwise was as individual wagons conveyed in BR's wagonload network.

 

Seem about right?

 

That description covers from say mid 70s upto the demise of the ferry in December 1995. 

 

Regarding chemical tanks the Dover ships had full passenger certificates until 1985, therefore some chemicals would pass via Harwich, where the ships had a 12 passenger certificate only.  There were certain flows that were more restricted on the sea than the land and vice versa.  The Dover ships certificates were reduced in the mid 80s to coincide with the closure of Harwich, which led to mor flows coming via Dover.

 

General traffic during my time at Dover (1981 to closure) could be anything and everything, wood, furniture, shoes, bagged powder, clothing, cased beer, spirits, scaffold boards, cased wine, bulk wine, bulk Cinzano for Telford, copper dross, vehicles and farm machinery, sugar in Polybulks  new wagons, petfoods  all imports.

 

Exports  spirits (possibly the same ones that were imported)  Crowes of Glasgow supplied the mediterranian cruise ship industry with spirits via Switzerland, paperwork for that lot was a nightmare, used to take one of us at least an hour checking all the declarations, we would submit the papers as a standalone to Customs such was the workload we dropped on them, fortunatly we had a cgood relationship with the officers at Western Docks. 

Other exports were glass light bulbs, from Harworth, steel, china clay, seed potatoes, fish (usually condemmed) groupage, mails.

 

Most were long term flows so could have been in some of the 60s trains of your era of interest. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[fulton]

11 hours ago, hmrspaul said:

That's some of it, perhaps some of the more important. But times change, there have been block trains of mineral water -  

 

Paul

 

As a friend said at the time, the ferry service was kept afloat by water, I believe Perrier.

[hmrspaul]

1 hour ago, fulton said:

As a friend said at the time, the ferry service was kept afloat by water, I believe Perrier.

and IIRC Evian.

One of my favourite photos. https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/twinvan/e3d9db685 I waited for the sun to come up having driven off the ferry from Vlissingen before going home. 

 

More generally I do think the modellers have largely overlooked how important ferry wagons have been for many many years (ever since WW1). The problem of HO vers OO being part of the problem I suspect. The Chunnel, and disappointing dropping of Speedlink, have had a deleterious affect on many of the more interesting wagons as the dangerous chemicals were banned. 

 

Paul

Edited June 13, 2022 by hmrspaul

[SED Freightman]

Not sure I can add much to the details of varied traffic flows provided by hmrspaul and Simon Lee who was of course actively involved at Dover.  I suspect the nuclear movements, with which I had an involvement in the mid to late 1980's, were not in evidence until at least the 1970's, these movements to and from Sellafield normally comprised one or two of the large international flask carriers operated by Nuclear Transport Ltd.  Regular origins / destinations were Beznau and Gosgen in Switzerland, occasionally La Hague in France and also possibly (I think) somewhere in Germany.  I remember one of the flask carriers being displayed in Platform 6 at Dover Western Docks, where due to my involvement with the regular movements the NTL rep presented me with a model of the wagon (or similar).

 

Mention by hmrspaul of the wagonload garden furniture movements reminds me that similar traffic used to arrive occasionally at Canterbury West, an Italian ferry wagon consigned to EMU Garden Furniture, the consignee would then spend all day carting the load away in a van.

[bécasse]

I remember visiting the Dubonnet production facility at Thuir in June 1981, home to the world's largest wooden wine vat. It was linked to the rest of the SNCF network by a very long and winding roadside tramway from Perpignan which had once also seen passenger services but is today long gone. In the Dubonnet yard being loaded was an early bogie Cargowagon ferry van, I was somewhat surprised to find that it was consigned to Dover.

[hmrspaul]

9 hours ago, SED Freightman said:

I suspect the nuclear movements, with which I had an involvement in the mid to late 1980's, were not in evidence until at least the 1970's, these movements to and from Sellafield normally comprised one or two of the large international flask carriers operated by Nuclear Transport Ltd.  Regular origins / destinations were Beznau and Gosgen in Switzerland, occasionally La Hague in France and also possibly (I think) somewhere in Germany. 

This is a large French nuclear flask wagon. Built in 1977 it was mounted on 4 diamond bogies. https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/frenchnuclear This one was allocated to Cherbourg - there is a nuclear generating station at the top of the peninsula.

 

Paul

[Wickham Green too]

8 hours ago, hmrspaul said:

This is a large French nuclear flask wagon. ...  on 4 diamond bogies. https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/frenchnuclear ...

Has the look of something that should have rather more wheels under it - though the axle load's actually only about 15T !

[The Lurker]

On 12/06/2022 at 17:31, Oldddudders said:

ISTR seeing Transfesa wagons at Paddock Wood, presumably dropped off/picked up by Dover trips. 

Yes, certainly in the late 70s, the sidings on the down side of the station behind the bay platform were often full of them.

 

Kentrail says:

 

 

https://www.kentrail.org.uk/paddock_wood 2.htm

 

I think the fire referred to was  the Whirlpool fire - which apparently was so large it shut the Medway Valley line for 8 days.

[Fat Controller]

2 minutes ago, The Lurker said:

Yes, certainly in the late 70s, the sidings on the down side of the station behind the bay platform were often full of them.

 

Kentrail says:

 

 

https://www.kentrail.org.uk/paddock_wood 2.htm

 

I think the fire referred to was  the Whirlpool fire - which apparently was so large it shut the Medway Valley line for 8 days.

By the 1990s, Transfesa rented the Paddock Wood site to Philips Whirlpool; who received about a train's worth of 'white goods' daily. At one time, there was a Rowntree's depot next door; the wagons for this went from York to Dover on a trunk Speedlink train, and were attached to the Whirlpool.

The fire was spectacular; the smoke was visible from our house, about 25 miles away. My wife's train was returned to London, as was anything  else en-route. She eventually got home after midnight

[SED Freightman]

The following services from Dover appeared in the SR WTT, Section M (Freight), Mandatory Train Services commencing 01/05/1972, which I guess would have been similar to the service operated in the 1960's :-

 

6W41 0030 (EWD) Dover Marine to Hither Green Continental Depot - Air braked service worked by Cl.71 via Maidstone East. Convey Ferry wagons. Formation - Bricklayers Arms, Hither Green.

 

6E64 0110 (MSX) Dover Marine to Stratford LIFT - Air braked service worked by Cl.33 via Maidstone East, Hither Green & West London Line. Convey Ferry wagons. Formation - Stratford LIFT, Temple Mills.

 

6E64 0110 (SO) Dover Marine to Temple Mils - Air braked service worked by Cl.33 via Maidstone East, Hither Green & West London Line. Convey Ferry wagons for Stratford LIFT only.

 

6E64 0130 (MO) Dover Marine to Stratford LIFT - Air braked service worked by Cl.33 via Tonbridge, Orpington, Hither Green & West London Line. Convey traffic for Stratford LIFT only.

 

6W42 0810 (SX) Dover Marine to Hither Green Continental Depot - Air braked service worked by Cl.71 via Maidstone East. Convey Ferry wagons.

 

6R41 1120 (SX) Dover Town to Hither Green Sdgs - Air braked service worked by Cl.71 via Tonbridge & Orpington. Convey Ferry Wagons. Formation - Temple Mills, Willesden, Hither Green.

 

6K35 1154 (SX) Dover Marine to Faversham - Worked by Cl.71. Convey Ferry wagons and BSK.

 

6K35 1154 (SO) Dover Marine to Faversham - Air braked service worked by Cl.71. Convey Ferry wagons and BSK.

 

6G42 2043 (SX) Dover Marine to Hither Green Continental Depot - Air braked service worked by Cl.71 via Faversham & Swanley. Convey Ferry wagons.

 

7R61 2130 (SX) - Dover Town to Hither Green Sdgs - Worked by Cl.73 , called at Paddock Wood thence via Orpington. Formation - Paddock Wood, Temple Mills, Willesden, Norwood, Hither Green.

 

6R43 2220 (SUN) Dover Marine to Hither Green Continental Depot - Air braked service worked by Cl.71 via Tonbridge & Orpington. Convey Ferry wagons.

 

There were corresponding return services. Of note is the importance of Faversham (East Kent Packers ?) for ferry traffic prior to the closure of Hither Green Continental Depot and opening of the Transfesa Terminal at Paddock Wood and A&RJ Wood's terminal at Sittingbourne.

 

Edited June 20, 2022 by SED Freightman
Missing service and routing added.

[Fat Controller]

Curious reference to BSKs on 6K35. I've seen (and indeed, travelled on) such vehicles on the Bristol 'Papers', but have never seen reference to their use elsewhere on freight workings.

[SED Freightman]

25 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

Curious reference to BSKs on 6K35. I've seen (and indeed, travelled on) such vehicles on the Bristol 'Papers', but have never seen reference to their use elsewhere on freight workings.

I can only assume that 6K35 was a convenient way of returning the empty BSK off the newspaper service and by publishing the move in the WTT it avoided the need to treat the movement as an exceptional load.

[Wickham Green too]

...... and odd that is an 'Air braked service' on Saturdays but - presumably - vacuum for the rest of the week. ( seems to be the only difference )

The only other train not labelled 'Air braked service' is 7R61 ........ I guess there would have been rather more vac braked services in the 1960's.

[SED Freightman]

19 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

...... and odd that is an 'Air braked service' on Saturdays but - presumably - vacuum for the rest of the week. ( seems to be the only difference )

The only other train not labelled 'Air braked service' is 7R61 ........ I guess there would have been rather more vac braked services in the 1960's.

I wonder if the air braked on Saturdays was an error in the WTT as the 7K56 1312 (SX) / 6K36 1318 (SO) return service from Faversham was vac braked all week - were there any dual braked BSK's on the SR in 1973 ? 7K56 called at Snowdown Colliery Sdgs and was shewn to convey Ferry wagons for shipment at Dover and wagons for repair at Ashford. It would be interesting to see a photo of a Cl.71 + ferry wagons in the colliery sidings.

[Fat Controller]

27 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

...... and odd that is an 'Air braked service' on Saturdays but - presumably - vacuum for the rest of the week. ( seems to be the only difference )

The only other train not labelled 'Air braked service' is 7R61 ........ I guess there would have been rather more vac braked services in the 1960's.

The bulk of the ferry vehicles would have been at least vac-piped, but more likely vac-fitted, so could work in vac-braked services.

The entire Transfesa fleet was dual fitted, as Spain's domestic network was vac-braked

[SED Freightman]

16 hours ago, hmrspaul said:

This is a large French nuclear flask wagon. Built in 1977 it was mounted on 4 diamond bogies. https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/frenchnuclear This one was allocated to Cherbourg - there is a nuclear generating station at the top of the peninsula.

 

Paul

The model I was given by the NTL rep is very similar to that in your photos, it is numbered 33 87 994 5 026-1, home station Valognes.

[lanchester]

On 12/06/2022 at 23:04, hmrspaul said:

That's some of it, perhaps some of the more important. But times change, there have been block trains of mineral water - still are - lots of steel, masses of unpleasant chemicals, nuclear as you suggest. ETRA working to Esso Fawley. Have a look through https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/ferrywagons

I was in Luton one day in the 1980s and there were Italian Interfrigo vans simply stuffed with grapes - completely loose loaded. For the Italian community in the Lea Valley whom made their own wine https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/ferryitalianinterfrigo/e27252bfd [how legally I have no idea]. Cane furniture was stuffed in a bogie VTG van in Guildford one day in 1982. BR would simply drop off wagons at any of these open yards and the owner of the contents came and collected them. There seemed minimal security control over such movements. 

Wine has been important - in bulk tankers. During the 1960s Dubonnet used to arrive at St. Albans (Roses Lime juice factory) and be offloaded over the fence. The traffic was lost to it coming in bulk ships as the popularity of Dubonnet increased in the early 1970s. 

 

Paul

 

During the 1960s Dubonnet used to arrive at St. Albans (Roses Lime juice factory) and be offloaded over the fence. The traffic was lost to it coming in bulk ships as the popularity of Dubonnet increased in the early 1970s. 

 

I don't suppose there was any traffic to Thurso, nearest railhead to the Queen Mother's Castle of Mey? (A nice rule 1 opp for Far North modellers?)

[Simon Lee]

The Faversham BSK move carried on until the end of newspaper traffic. It was, as mentioned, an expedient way to return the coach to Fav for the 0455 Dover the next morning. 

Saturdays normally the BSK returned on the main van empties to New Cross Gate for exam/maintainance. I suspect the AB Saturday service ran vac if the BSK returned unusually to Fav.

 

In latter years we ran Woods traffic with the BSK to Sittingbourne where it was booked to run round before returning to Fav. Always a joy if an Interfrigo turned up as 9 out of 10 were vac pipe only, once had a formation of 73, Interfrigo, 2 x SNCF flats 874145 type and then BSK. 

 

It is less well known that Dover also had quite significant domestic traffic and export traffic not via the train ferry in the 60's, bunker fuel for the ferries, household coal, army stores, scrap metal plus the usual paraphernalia that of small town needs that the railway used to carry. 

Local traffic flows included import box Wood from Granville dock to Ramsgate for Canterbury for making fruit and vegetable boxes for the Garden of England produce. Gas works coal Granville docks to the town gas works.  Also possibly the shortest freight flow ever, imported foam rubber from the Admiralty pier to Dover Priory goods yard in Palvans.

Export tractors often appeared in for crane loading onto the RMT Ostende ferries.

 

[jonhall]

1 hour ago, lanchester said:

During the 1960s Dubonnet used to arrive at St. Albans (Roses Lime juice factory) and be offloaded over the fence. The traffic was lost to it coming in bulk ships as the popularity of Dubonnet increased in the early 1970s. 

 

 

There was a photo published in the SNCF society journal probably 15 years ago that showed an LMS 1f loco shunting a Dubonet tank at StAlbans - it was unusual as the tank was 'barrelled' ie the diameter in the middle of the tank was larger than at either end.

 

Jon

[jonhall]

You might enjoy this 

 

Jon

 

 

 

[teeinox]

Folks,

 

Thank you for your replies on what I thought was a rather niche topic!  Anyway, the photo of the Dubonnet wagon was very striking, so, cheekily, I did some photoshopping to see whether I could remove the colour cast.  So here it is for your delectation!

 

 

 

On the right, you can now just see the platform of a BR brake van.  But where was the photo taken?

 

teeinox

Edited June 17, 2022 by teeinox
Improved photo

[Oldddudders]

ISTR a tale of a wine tank-car being consigned to Eastleigh, where the consignee duly pumped it out and it was returned to Italy - where all hell broke loose. No-one had thought to clean it out before the return journey, and it was now a sticky, smelly mess! A learning experience, as they say.

[2E Sub Shed]

Mention of "Whirlpool" white goods, reminds me of a photo in one of the books in my  collection of Ferry Wagons in Northampton Castle Station Goods shed in the 1960's captioned as containing washing machines from Italy. Philips had a large warehouse outside Northampton at the time.  

[jwealleans]

Can't find it now but Jon Hall gave me a copy of a BR (I think) publication from the 1960s which followed the path of a washing machine from Italy to a shop somewhere in London via the Train Ferry.