Sticking stuff down- best solution?

[nathan70000]

Apologies for what might seem like a fairly basic question but does anyone know the best way to stick down ballast and scatter??

 

I've just started ballasting on a US outline layout and on the previous incarnation one thing I struggled with was actually getting the ballast solid. After a while, it would either return to its unglued state or crack. I'm using Kato unitrack and the matching ballast to go with it, it's not exactly cheap so I can't afford to waste loads of it.

 

I've been using the woodland scenics scenic cement, as I thought this would work better than plain PVA. I would ideally like to spray it in a fine mist but the only spray bottles I have spray in a somewhat messy fashion leaving an uneven covering. Even the bits it has covered don't seem particularly solid to me though, after 24 hours. Plus I have scenic cement everywhere- even on the windows, somehow, which is a terrible waste!

 

I'm stumped. Does anyone have a foolproof way of getting ballast down and making it stick? What do you use? Can anyone recommend a spray bottle that sprays a fine puffy mist and doesn't jam up straightaway? I'm starting to think scenic cement might not be the best solution.

 

Thanks

 

 

[doilum]

Builders PVA with a drop of washing up liquid. Lay the ballast dry and mist it with water and a drop of washing up liquid using a recycled kitchen surface spay bottle. The diluted PVA is then applied with a dropper. These are available on line at a very reasonable price. 

There are many good books and articles on scenic scatter. Having put down some suitable paint,the base coat is laid into a thick layer of PVA and then sprayed with water(and fairy) which draws up the PVA and creates a good surface to begin detailed work.

[Jeff Smith]

Misting is usually the step I forget.  The washing up liquid is to reduce the surface tension to stop the water beading.  Ensure you use a 'proper' PVA, not school glue which washes out and would re-soften the ballast if subsequently given a colour wash!

[ISW]

48 minutes ago, nathan70000 said:

I'm using Kato unitrack and the matching ballast to go with it, it's not exactly cheap so I can't afford to waste loads of it.

Whilst I can see the benefits of using the 'matching' Kato ballast, the photos I've seen on t'internet' imply that it's very similar to ballast from other companies. My bag of Gaugemaster ballast 'looks' the same. Additionally, I'm currently using a mix of Woodlands Scenics Grey ballast with some cheap 'real stone' dark grey ballast I picked up at a local SwapMeet. That also 'looks' like the Kato stuff.

 

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that I'm sure you could find (or make up) a ballast that matches the Kato stuff, and at a lower price.

 

For my ballast I'm using the tried-and-tested method of 50/50 PVA / water mix with a dash of washing-up liquid, pre-wetting the ballast with a find mist of plain water from a pound-shop perfume spray bottle. You can see my complete 'tools of the trade' at 

 

Ian

 

[doilum]

Always buy sufficient ballast to finish the job and then some. It is always worth doing a test strip first. The manufacturer's size is usually inaccurate. Given the financial investment in track and points it is important to be happy with the grade of ballast before committing. Generally, buying the scale below your model is a good start.

[BR60103]

I use WS Scenic Cement. 

My ballast procedure is spread, mist with alcohol, dribble on scenic cement with an eyedropper.  I have a misting sprayer that I obtained from my wife's hairdresser. I find that the WS sprayer produces droplets that make funny shapes in the ballast.

For scatter (grassy) I start with a layer of acrylic matt medium, add a layer of scatter. After the matt medium sets, I mist with alcohol and spray/dribble on a bit more scenic cement. I use the WS sprayer for this. Then add another layer of scatter and mist & spray.

For grassy/flat areas I have a collection of small strainers that I fill with scatter and then tap.  Between layers I may turn the scenery on its side to dump off the unattached scatter. (Or vacuum if it's not movable).

 

I have an opinion that the scenic cement is diluted matt medium.

 

Ballasting with this means that track can be lifted by soaking with warmish water and running a blade under the track. The ballast will detach from the track (in lumps) if soaked in a bucket or tray of water.

 

[jcm@gwr]

I don't use washing-up liquid, I read somewhere it potentially could be the cause of some

brands of ballast going green. I use a splash of meths, it does the same, if not better, job

of reducing the surface tension, it also helps speed up the drying process.

Also, I sometimes add a bit of acrylic paint, normally black, for areas where locos stand,

plus some sidings, etc. because it looks more natural than trying to paint it later.

[doilum]

You may wish to consider painting the rails and sleepers before ballasting.  Once I spent all of Monday and Wednesday evening carefully painting the trackwork ( three palates for rail, chairs and sleepers) of an already ballasted section only for another club member to come on Saturday with his airbrush and cover the whole thing in Precision track gunge. There is no correct way, it is just easier to to beforehand.

[ejstubbs]

On 05/05/2022 at 03:20, BR60103 said:

have an opinion that the scenic cement is diluted matt medium.

 

I think I've read this suggestion elsewhere - IIRC the thought was that a tube of matt medium diluted to same consistency as scenic cement worked out cheaper (you used to be able to buy matte medium quite cheap from The Works but they don't seem to do it any more).

 

Some folks don't like the way that PVA sets rock hard and transmits the vibrations of the trains' movements to the baseboard, where they are then amplified.  I don't know whether scenic cement/matt medium is any better in this regard.  I know that some recommend diluted Copydex as an alternative, which cures to a less rigid finish and dampens the 'drumming' a bit.  On the other hand, other suggest that it has a disadvantage in that it goes off/discolours over time.

[Campaman]

You can get matt medium from the Range (Galleria brand in 500ml bottles) its good for a lot of things diluted or straight out of the bottle.

[Graham108]

3 hours ago, jcm@gwr said:

. I use a splash of meths,

How long does the smell last?

[ejstubbs]

6 hours ago, jcm@gwr said:

I don't use washing-up liquid, I read somewhere it potentially could be the cause of some

brands of ballast going green. I use a splash of meths

 

Doesn't meths have a purple dye as part of its formulation?

 

I'm pretty sure that isopropanol will do the same job i.e. reducing the surface tension (I've seen recipes for home-made screnwash that use isopropanol for that purpose) and aiding flow amongst the ballast granules, and it's colourless.

[Jeff Smith]

I've found that IPA can attack some acrylic paints, notably Vallejo.

 

Is that the same as isopropanol?

Edited May 6, 2022 by Jeff Smith

[jcm@gwr]

7 hours ago, Graham108 said:

How long does the smell last?

 

Not that long, you don't need that much meths

[Jinty3f]

I am in the process of  ballasting some O gauge track on a relayed section of my layout. For pre-gluing, I use a washed out bottle of 1Cal or  Frylight spray, which gives an incredibly fine  spray of  water plus  a slug of  screen wash ( which contains alcohol or meths I think?) (My daughter is a hairdresser and uses the same spray bottles in her salon, because  she says the spray is finer, and a bottle is only £1.25 in the local supermarket.) I follow this up by dribbling Copydex diluted lightly with more screen wash to fix the ballast in place. The process works successfully and the spray bottles are highly effective.

 

 

[ejstubbs]

On 06/05/2022 at 11:26, Campaman said:

You can get matt medium from the Range (Galleria brand in 500ml bottles)

 

Well that's confusing - The Range's web site says it comes in 250ml bottles @ £7.99 - but then says it's £2.72 per 100ml, which would make 250ml only £6.80!  Someone's got their sums wrong...  Still cheaper than Hobbycraft's £10 for 250ml of the "professional" Daler-Rowney stuff, though, so thanks for the pointer.

 

On 06/05/2022 at 18:25, Jeff Smith said:

I've found that IPA can attack some acrylic paints, notably Vallejo.

 

Is that the same as isopropanol?

 

Isopropanol = isopropyl alcohol = IPA.  It's very diluted when used as a wetting agent.  Does meths (aka "denatured alcohol i.e. ethanol with toxic stuff added to it to put you off drinking it) attack acrylic paints?

 

I believe - but am very open to being proven wrong* - that isoprop is what the art restorers on programmes like Britain's Lost Masterpieces and The Repair Shop mean when they talk about using a "mild solvent" - it certainly won't shift a lot of the types of goo left behind on jars when you soak the labels off (SWMBO does a lot of jam making...)

 

This rather handy infographic suggests that isoprop is indeed a milder solvent than ethanol/denatured alcohol/meths - though how either product interacts with specific materials such as acrylic paint may well be another matter:

 

 

(Note also the rather interesting comment about isoprop being better as a contact cleaner than denatured alcohol.)

 

* Put it this way: I'm not planning to take a bottle of isoprop to the family Rembrandt...even if the family had a Rembrandt, which it doesn't.

[Jeff Smith]

About the only thing I use IPA for is cleaning rail tops......

[ejstubbs]

30 minutes ago, Jeff Smith said:

About the only thing I use IPA for is cleaning rail tops......

 

According to some, that way lies damnation and torment in a pit of eternal poor running.  Or something...

 

 

I use isoprop a lot as a general degreaser, e.g. preparing a surface for adhesives, and first-port-of-call gunge remover.  As I say, there is some stuff it won't shift (and very likely a lot more that I've not yet encountered).  In the case of jar label glue, it seems to soften it a bit but not actually dissolve it, which means when you give it a rub it just spreads a thin layer of the sticky stuff all over the place.  Not good.  The only stuff I've got at home that reliably removes recalcitrant jar label glue is a bottle of Homebase Value Paint Brush Cleaner that is so old I can't even remember when I bought it, and I've now only got about a quarter of it left.  It used to be blue, but has lost almost all its colour now.  I've no idea what's in it, so when it does eventually run out I'll probably have to resort to experimenting with different brands of "blue stuff that's sold for cleaning paint brushes" to see if any of those do the job.  It leaves a bit of an oily residue but that's easily removed with washing up liquid.  It's quite smelly, though, so I usually have to throw any cloths, rags or paper towels I've been using straight in the wheelie bin before they stink the garage out.

 

None of which addresses the core of the issue which is: why do some manufacturers of fruit-based preserves feel it necessary to attach the labels to their jars with what appears to be military grade, nuclear-proof glue that can only be removed using no doubt carcinogenic concoctions of aromatic hydrocarbons?  What exactly is wrong with a label that will come off cleanly after a few minutes soaking in hot water?

[doilum]

Barcodes. I have been told that the reason that labels are so well stuck is to do with being perfectly placed for the automated stock readers. But it might just be to frustrate potential recyclers.

[ejstubbs]

12 hours ago, doilum said:

I have been told that the reason that labels are so well stuck is to do with being perfectly placed for the automated stock readers.

 

Well, maybe.  But some manufacturers seem to manage perfectly well with easily-soaked-away glue, so I'm inclined to think there might be something else going on.

 

There is also the question of why flour producers seem to use such a randomly sized dose of glue to seal bags of flour.  This means that every so often you get a bag that's be sealed to a security standard which would impress MI6, and it's impossible to get the thing open without tearing a hole in the paper that then leaks flour (a) when your pouring it from the bag, and (b) when it's sat in the cupboard.  Nothing to do with recycling, it's just tediously inconvenient.

[Campaman]

WD40 is very good for removing sticky residue left from labels, then just wash the WD40 off with washing up liquid.

[doilum]

It could of course mean that the good old water soluble glue wasn't quite as innocent as we might imagine.........