Triang-Hornby Hymek versus Modern Hornby

[cessna152towser]

Today I repaired a dead Hymek.   Unscrew and unclip the body, unclip and lift out the motor bogie and inspect it for broken contacts.   Problem was a piece of fluff wedged between one of the brushes and the commutator.   Cleaned, oiled and re-assembled and running sweetly within around ten minutes.   If only fixing modern Chinese Hornby would be so simple.  I am utterly baffled as to why my Hornby Clan is totally dead and my wife's Hogwarts Castle keeps shorting out.

[andyman7]

I very much prefer working on pre-superdetail stuff than modern superdetail items where electrical or mechanical repairs are called for, although familiarity is definitely a factor. The main issues with modern items is the lack of consistency over wiring principles (meaning that any new investigation is an adventure); coupled with complex wiring that is often very thin cable and not colour coded. 

[Il Grifone]

Thin wiring is always a recipe for failure, especially if it's expected to be flexible. Phone cables for example....

Heritage models are virtually unbreakable - from the pickups via fairly tough wire to the motor and back through the chassis block.

Don't get me started on SMD electronics. I solved the intermittent fault on my Blu-ray player by getting another one! (When you can't even see the printed circuits, let alone solder them! It is probably only a dry joint, but....)

[kevinlms]

13 minutes ago, Il Grifone said:

Thin wiring is always a recipe for failure, especially if it's expected to be flexible. Phone cables for example....

 

Phone cable for sockets etc, is meant to be solid, not flexible. Stuff like phone cords, because it moves, IS meant to be made from multi-stranded cable. Cords are meant to be relatively easy to replace.

[Il Grifone]

True, but it's not flexible multistrand versus solid so much as being thinner than necessary (I know copper costs money*); phone cords being a case in point. They last about 5 minutes if you are lucky.

 

* A lot if you are into the Hi-Fi super cable nonsense (can be £1000s). For example the last couple of metres from the mains socket to the amplifier allegedly makes a difference, despite the kilometres of cable on the other side. Impurities are supposed to hard it harder for the electrons to find their way through the cables! BS!

Edited June 16, 2022 by Il Grifone
Added 'example' which got lost in transit.

[cypherman]

Hi all,

I have an early Hornby class 35 Hymek. This one and it runs great. Simple to work on and use. OK it is not the most detailed and up-to-date model of the Hymek but runs all the time. Much better than some later Hornby diesels I have like the class 33 which continually tries to derail itself.

As for the Clan I think you need to do a continuity test on the wires from the pickup. As mentioned above they are very fine and quite fragile. Trapping a wire at some point or even bending it may break the core. If not you may just have a dead motor. As for the Castle I have a similar problem so ended up stripping all the old wiring out including the dcc socket and rewiring with a simple dc set up. Now runs a treat.

Edited June 15, 2022 by cypherman

[rogerzilla]

The Chinese body plastic is also made from cheese, with very fine screws to attach the chassis.  These take almost no torque to strip them and aren't even strong enough to support the weight of the chassis if the loco is frequently lifted.  I imagine the average child could destroy one in 5 minutes.

[cypherman]

I have had this problem on a couple of engines. So I drilled out the mounting points and glued brass helicoils in.

Edited June 17, 2022 by cypherman

[rogerzilla]

I take the scuzzier approach of putting a sliver of plastic in the hole and a drop of threadlock.

[GoingUnderground]

I can't speak for modern/new locos as I buy relatively few of them, the most recent being the EFE Rail EHO  Bakerloo 1938 Tube Stock.

 

But I have been buying several old as in pre-1970 and a couple of pre-1960 Triang locos. They have been described as non runners, but I've got them all going again within around an hour of receiving them. The hardest one to sort was one where some numpty had superglued the little block of carbon on to the arm of the commutator brush with superglue, and superglue is an insulator - first time that I've ever come across a non-conducting Triang commutator brush. But I found it with simple fault finding - test everything in turn  and as there are so few components, no damned PCB, it didn't take long and I have a supply of spare brush assemblies.

Edited July 1, 2022 by GoingUnderground
Correct typos

[Ruffnut Thorston]

A bit of conducting silver paint bridging the superglue? 😉😀

 

Sold to repair the old car rear window demister tracks....🙂

 

🐉🙋🏼‍♀️

 

 

Edited June 21, 2022 by Ruffnut Thorston
Typo

[Il Grifone]

It would probably work, but the stuff is expensive and a new brush is cheaper even at today's 'collector' prices. (My stocks are running out.... 🥴)

Edited June 22, 2022 by Il Grifone

[cypherman]

7 hours ago, Il Grifone said:

It would probably work, but a the stuff is expensive and a new brush is cheaper even at today's 'collector' prices. (My stocks are running out.... 🥴)

Hi,

Peters Spares hold a large stock of Hornby carbon brushes for X03 motors. They have had them made especially for them.

[RedgateModels]

15 minutes ago, cypherman said:

Hi,

Peters Spares hold a large stock of Hornby carbon brushes for X03 motors. They have had them made especially for them.

 

and wouldn't supply me a quantity at a discount as I'm "not a shop". Costs which have to be passed on of course

[sjp23480]

On 13/06/2022 at 17:47, cessna152towser said:

Today I repaired a dead Hymek.   Unscrew and unclip the body, unclip and lift out the motor bogie and inspect it for broken contacts.   Problem was a piece of fluff wedged between one of the brushes and the commutator.   Cleaned, oiled and re-assembled and running sweetly within around ten minutes.   If only fixing modern Chinese Hornby would be so simple.  I am utterly baffled as to why my Hornby Clan is totally dead and my wife's Hogwarts Castle keeps shorting out.

I have two Hornby Clans which were both dead when they came out of their boxes after a few years.  

 

Turned out to be a mechanical problem and had to take the gear tower apart and clean out the Hornby grease which had congealed - the motor did not have enough grunt to get it moving.  Worth a look if you haven't isolated the issue.

 

Steve

[GoingUnderground]

On 21/06/2022 at 13:57, Ruffnut Thorston said:

A bit of conducting silver paint bridging the superglue? 😉😀

 

Sold to repair the old car rear window demister tracks....🙂

 

🐉🙋🏼‍♀️

 

 

I' m sure it would work, I've used it elsewhere in models to bridge gaps but the brush arms and brushes can get quite hot in use. Also I needed to desolder the wire that was attached directly to the brush arm, and as I started to do that the brush fell off. I suspect that was what happened to the previous owner and they thought superglue would be fine to reattach the carbon block. So I stopped desoldering and just cut the lower part of the arm away to convert it into the usual crimped contact pad that Triang used and shoved that in next to the new arm assembly just like Triang did.

[GoingUnderground]

On 22/06/2022 at 15:28, cypherman said:

Hi,

Peters Spares hold a large stock of Hornby carbon brushes for X03 motors. They have had them made especially for them.

I've bought several from them, but I've never had to replace one that's worn out, only replace missing ones in locos bought from ebay. I bought a job lot of about 20 used ones and they work just fine. Only thing to watch out for is that the carbon block hasn't got soaked in oil, that can cause problems if they have.

 

I'm currently looking at a Triang R159, the blue & yellow double ended transcontinental diesel. It is a pre 1959 one as it has the Mk2 open loop and harpoon coupling. But it runs just fine even without any work from me, but  I will remagnetise the motor magnet and clean the commutator slots.

 

I bought the loco to customise as there is a part of the front lower cab broken away and missing, and it also was missing the fuel tank and one of the the pilots/cowcatchers. But when it arrived apart from the missing parts I found that it really was to good to muck around with. Also it exactly matched a dummy R.250  that I had waiting for a powered soulmate. So I'll be looking at trying to replace the missing parts and repair the broken lower cab nose, I have a spare nose from a previous conversion of a double ended loco to single ended to produce a loco that looked more like the EMD F7/F9 than the R55. Also I'll be converting the couplings from Mk2 to Mk3. it's relatively easy to do as that's what is on the dummy loco and I prefer the Mk3 Tensionlocks to the Mk2s.

[cypherman]

2 hours ago, GoingUnderground said:

I've bought several from them, but I've never had to replace one that's worn out, only replace missing ones in locos bought from ebay. I bought a job lot of about 20 used ones and they work just fine. Only thing to watch out for is that the carbon block hasn't got soaked in oil, that can cause problems if they have.

 

I'm currently looking at a Triang R159, the blue & yellow double ended transcontinental diesel. It is a pre 1959 one as it has the Mk2 open loop and harpoon coupling. But it runs just fine even without any work from me, but  I will remagnetise the motor magnet and clean the commutator slots.

 

I bought the loco to customise as there is a part of the front lower cab broken away and missing, and it also was missing the fuel tank and one of the the pilots/cowcatchers. But when it arrived apart from the missing parts I found that it really was to good to muck around with. Also it exactly matched a dummy R.250  that I had waiting for a powered soulmate. So I'll be looking at trying to replace the missing parts and repair the broken lower cab nose, I have a spare nose from a previous conversion of a double ended loco to single ended to produce a loco that looked more like the EMD F7/F9 than the R55. Also I'll be converting the couplings from Mk2 to Mk3. it's relatively easy to do as that's what is on the dummy loco and I prefer the Mk3 Tensionlocks to the Mk2s.

Hi Going Underground,

Speak to these people. I am sure that they have one of the diesels you are looking for on sale. I was only in there a couple of days ago and i am sure I saw it.

https://www.rhuddlanmodels.co.uk/

 

[GoingUnderground]

49 minutes ago, cypherman said:

Hi Going Underground,

Speak to these people. I am sure that they have one of the diesels you are looking for on sale. I was only in there a couple of days ago and i am sure I saw it.

https://www.rhuddlanmodels.co.uk/

 

Thank you for that link. But when I said "looking" I meant literally that as it's sitting on my workbench. But again thank you for the thought. I mentioned it as it is must be getting on for 64 years old as Mk2 couplings wwere only fitted up to sometime in1958 as the '59 Triang catalogue has everything with Mk3 Tensionlocks and all the bogie tooling both plastic and for the metal motor bogies must have been altered during '58 to take the Mk3s. And you can't fit a Mk3 to a bogie made for the Mk2 without doing some modification either to the Mk3 coupling or to the Mk2 mounting point. So they must have started fitting Mk3 couplings as soon as the new bogie tooling became available.

 

I'm sure that Ruffnut will have more info on the changeover from Mk2 to Mk3 couplings, being the Triang expert on here.  

[Ruffnut Thorston]

Officially, the MK3 couplings were introduced from January, 1959.

 

The design is a scaled up version of the tension lock couplings originally designed for the TT Gauge range.

 

Obviously, there must have been a changeover period on the production lines...

 

But at the time, all of the "surplus" MK2 couplings and associated parts, bogies, chassis, etc. were just redesignated as Spare Parts, and added to that stock.

 

So, a quick changover was quite possible...just a matter of changing over the parts in the bins before restarting production, the next day even...🤔

 

On some cast metal motor bogies, steam locomotive front bogies and pony trucks, etc. (and locomotive chassis blocks?) initially the coupling was fitted by rivetting over the ends of two cast in pins, the same method as was used on the MK3 fitted cast metal wagon chassis.

Later, the coupling fitting was by an eyelet (rivet) or a small self tapping fixing screw.

The two cast in pins remaining as locating pins.

 

The cast metal wagon chassis mostly remained with the rivetted over pins, until most of the cast metal wagon chassis were replaced by plastic chassis, in 1963. Most plastic chassis had the coupling fitted with an eyelet (rivet), with two moulded locating pins 

 

🐉🙋🏼‍♀️

 

[GoingUnderground]

I'm not so sure about your reference to "rivetting over the ends of two cast in pins". As I recall my 1959/60s models, my 3MT, R59, in particular which suffered several near suicidal jumps off the dining room table, the pins were solid zinc alloy and fixing was achieved by deforming/flaring the ends of the pins by means of a die forced into the end of the pin that left an impression like a cross or + in the end of the pin and displacing the alloy so that the end of the pin was made wider than the locating hole(s) in the coupling and securing the Mk3 coupling to the bogie, etc.. That meant that if the flared end on the zinc alloy ever broke, such as in my case when the loco landed coupling first on the hard floor, there was no way to re-secure the new Tensionlock other than using glue.

[Ruffnut Thorston]

On 01/07/2022 at 21:14, GoingUnderground said:

I'm not so sure about your reference to "rivetting over the ends of two cast in pins". As I recall my 1959/60s models, my 3MT, R59, in particular which suffered several near suicidal jumps off the dining room table, the pins were solid zinc alloy and fixing was achieved by deforming/flaring the ends of the pins by means of a die forced into the end of the pin that left an impression like a cross or + in the end of the pin and displacing the alloy so that the end of the pin was made wider than the locating hole(s) in the coupling and securing the Mk3 coupling to the bogie, etc.. That meant that if the flared end on the zinc alloy ever broke, such as in my case when the loco landed coupling first on the hard floor, there was no way to re-secure the new Tensionlock other than using glue.

 

That is a good description which equates to "riveting over the ends of two cast in pins". 😉🙂

 

Yes, it was a weak design, when it came to coupling replacement.

 

The "official" method for coupling replacement was detailed in "The First Ten Years" book.

 

Lever off the old coupling.

 

Force the new coupling into place by using a hollow punch to push the coupling holes over the pins.

 

Use a pointed punch to re-rivet the ends of the pins 

 

It is a pity that the use of a fixing screw, or nut and bolt (machine screw) wasn't adopted for all models from the introduction of the MK3 Tension Lock Couplings.

The mazak pins are fragile, and it's likely that they wouldn't be up to being reused very often, especially if they had actually failed by loosing the ends, as in your example.

 

If replacement couplings are required, a better method, if possible, is to drill a hole for a fixing screw. As used in some later motor bogies and locomotive chassis and bogies.

 

The original Tri-ang coupling fixing screws are self tapping screws.

 

Again, if possible, the hole could be tapped to take a brass machine screw. 

 

If the space exists, maybe a nut and bolt fixing could be used.

 

I believe that the Tri-ang version of the USA Horn Hook coupling was fitted to rolling stock by means of a nut and bolt, whereas UK Tension Lock couplings were fitted to rolling stock using an eyelet (rivet).

The eyelet fixing being another weak design for coupling replacement.

 

Of course, Tri-ang were making toys, and price, together with time on the production lines, probably dictated the designs and methodology...🤷🏼‍♀️

[GoingUnderground]

On 03/07/2022 at 07:47, Ruffnut Thorston said:

 

I believe that the Tri-ang version of the USA Horn Hook coupling was fitted to rolling stock by means of a nut and bolt, whereas UK Tension Lock couplings were fitted to rolling stock using an eyelet (rivet).

 

I've got an ATT Branded Freightliner wagon with the Flexivan containers, and the US style couplings are housed in an assembly that is fixed to the the standard UK stock Mk3 mounting point with a nut and bolt. Remove the nut and bolt and the US style coupling and there is your perfectly normal and unadulterated Mk3 coupling mounting point just waiting for a Mk3 to be fitted, and you can reuse the same nut and bolt to do it. So if it works on freightliner wagons than I would imagine that the same applies to the rest of the ATT branded models made by Rovex.  

[Ruffnut Thorston]

That's the type of coupling I was referring to, thanks for the confirmation. 🙂

 

🐉🙋🏼‍♀️