new to dcc whats best controller ?

[RedgateModels]

My article recommends nothing, but the Z21 does come out rather well 😉

[jamesed]

23 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

 

And of course it was just coincidence that the review ended up recommending the system that they sold, whilst finding fault with the other systems.

 

Funny that . . . !!!   

 

They are a company that makes some excellent products but I do find that they are very clever at blurring the lines between self promotional marketing and offering technical advice. You've got to admire them for that!  

[RedgateModels]

11 minutes ago, jamesed said:

You've got to admire them for that!  

 

Sorry, no 😉

[Ron Ron Ron]

2 hours ago, WIMorrison said:

 

And of course it was just coincidence that the review ended up recommending the system that they sold, whilst finding fault with the other systems.

 

 

Also remember at the time, DCC Concepts were solely based in Australia and were the distributors  for NCE there.

 

 

.

[WIMorrison]

Yay may explain the very poor range of systems that were reviewed - certainly skewed to what they sell and what people might have heard off, completely missing out many capable and popular systems 😉

[MikeB]

3 hours ago, WIMorrison said:

 

And of course it was just coincidence that the review ended up recommending the system that they sold, whilst finding fault with the other systems.

One other consideration is does the system make it easy to do what the user wants to do.  Consisting seems important if you have multiple power units on a train, as in North American mainline, but is probably unimportant for many UK modellers. Easily accessing function buttons is important to use the capabilities of sound fitted locos.  I had a NCE Power Pro but replaced it with an ECoS for these reasons.

The American systems seem very dated with lots of button pushing, like the old mobile phones where you pressed a number key several times to enter a letter in a text. I find the  European systems with touchscreens such as ECoS and ACE much easier to use, especially since you can label the function keys with symbols or words, avoiding the need to remember or look up what each one does. 

[grriff]

I agree with Mike, when embarking on any project, the first task must be to list the requirements such as: budget; ease of use; how many locos running at any one time; use of a smartphone; connection to a computer etc. 

I have experience of a SPROG which is very good but requires a computer and JMRI. It's an inexpensive solution and easy to select locos and operate accessories using PanelPro. Locos can be controlled using a smartphone. 

I have experience of using an NCE system. I find selecting locos clumsy and you have to remember their numbers. Operating accessories is similarly difficult and selecting functions, such as sound I don't find easy. However, you don't need to understand computers. 

The underlying advice is: decide what you want to do and thoroughly research all available systems, trying as many out as possible. 

Edited August 26, 2022 by grriff

[Andymsa]

Something that’s not been looked at with this debate is all users are not equal. Some users are technically minded then there are those who struggle with basic programming of even a loco. It’s always the same when this subject comes up where it just runs away that this system is best or that system is best, as the previous post says do your homework on what you require from your system, it’s ease of use and how easy to expand the system. 

[RobinofLoxley]

1 hour ago, Andymsa said:

Something that’s not been looked at with this debate is all users are not equal. Some users are technically minded then there are those who struggle with basic programming of even a loco. It’s always the same when this subject comes up where it just runs away that this system is best or that system is best, as the previous post says do your homework on what you require from your system, it’s ease of use and how easy to expand the system. 

Not only that but DCC is quite technical with a whole language and culture associated with it that could be quite baffling to an entry level modeller. A quick look at decoder documentation would tell you that although I would exclude Zimo, while being critical of product documentation in DCC in general, as far as I am familiar with it.

[grriff]

One piece of advice I would also add: try and understand the principles of DCC, particularly Configuration Variables (CVs) since you will have to change at least one. 

Edited August 26, 2022 by grriff

[TEAMYAKIMA]

48 minutes ago, RobinofLoxley said:

Not only that but DCC is quite technical with a whole language and culture associated with it that could be quite baffling to an entry level modeller. A quick look at decoder documentation would tell you that although I would exclude Zimo, while being critical of product documentation in DCC in general, as far as I am familiar with it.

 

I totally agree, about a year ago I joined a brand 'x' users group and left later the same day. Someone posed a question and the answer was so technical that I literally didn't understand a word - it might as well have been written in Mandarin.

[RedgateModels]

这对你来说很容易说

[WIMorrison]

2 minutes ago, RedgateModels said:

这对你来说很容易说

 

 

我同意 🤣

[grriff]

One way of checking if a DCC system is suitable for you is to read the manual, especially the part that explains how to change the loco number. 

[RobinofLoxley]

58 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

 

 

我同意 🤣

I didnt know swearing was allowed on this board

[WIMorrison]

It isn't

[Free At Last]

A friend of mine changed over to dcc about a year ago as he wanted to run sound locos of which he has a dozen or more now. However, he has not delved into what dcc can do, he runs his locos as they came on the default number three. He gets irritated that he had to put locos in a dead siding or remove them from the track because they run when he doesn't want them to. He likes to run them double headed but has problems when one of his locos has the whistle on F2 and the other has active braking on F2. The one with active braking doesn't stop when he turns the speed control to zero and he then has to turn the power off to stop it, he is blaming 'stay alive' which they don't have. I have tried explaining over the phone but I have to give up. He is happy though and swears he would never go back to analogue.

[Ron Ron Ron]

15 hours ago, faulcon1 said:

........The NCE Pro Cab is the same but with 5 amp not 2.5 amp of the Powercab.

There is also the Pro Cab 10 which is 10 amps designed for gauges O, 1 and larger......

 

A bit of mis-labelling there.

For a bit of light hearted pedantry.....

The ProCab is a throttle (handset) not a DCC system.

There is no 5 amp ProCab, nor such a thing as a ProCab 10.

 

PowerPro is the correct term.

 

15 hours ago, faulcon1 said:

......NCE started out making components for other manufacturers before launching a DCC system of their own. .....

 

North Coast Engineering (as NCE was known back then) started out providing the software and some of the hardware designs for Wangrow, one of the original manufacturers of a DCC system, in the early/mid 1990's.

That relationship ended in 1998, with NCE holding many of the patents.

(Note: Wangrow ceased trading in 2003)

NCE subsequently launched  the PowerPro DCC system, which is basically a rebranded, slight evolution of the Wangrow System One. 

It even looks the same, apart from the change of branding.

 

The PowerCab was a much later introduction, designed to catch up with competing manufacturers, who were offering entry level systems, to entice potential DCC converts, who may have been hesitant to splash out on the cost of a full DCC system, or wanted to put their "toe in the water" before committing to a much larger investment.

The rational being, that once a customer had bought into a particular manufacturers hardware ecosystem, future upgrades and expansion would be locked into that brand (unless they sold the kit and started afresh).

Unlike Digtrax, MRC and Lenz (the other main competitors in the US market at the time), NCE didn't have such an entry level system and therefore were at a competitive disadvantage.

Hence the introduction of the competitively priced PowerCab, provided with an upgrade path that would lock customers into the purchase of more NCE equipment.

 

 

https://thumbs.worthpoint.com/zoom/images2/1/0213/15/wangrow-system-one-dcc-components_1_75646e845f30c98d751135a9de31a9aa.jpg

 

.

 

 

[faulcon1]

6 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

A bit of mis-labelling there.

For a bit of light hearted pedantry.....

The ProCab is a throttle (handset) not a DCC system.

There is no 5 amp ProCab, nor such a thing as a ProCab 10.

 

PowerPro is the correct term.

 

 

North Coast Engineering (as NCE was known back then) started out providing the software and some of the hardware designs for Wangrow, one of the original manufacturers of a DCC system, in the early/mid 1990's.

That relationship ended in 1998, with NCE holding many of the patents.

(Note: Wangrow ceased trading in 2003)

NCE subsequently launched  the PowerPro DCC system, which is basically a rebranded, slight evolution of the Wangrow System One. 

It even looks the same, apart from the change of branding.

https://thumbs.worthpoint.com/zoom/images2/1/0213/15/wangrow-system-one-dcc-components_1_75646e845f30c98d751135a9de31a9aa.jpg

 

.

 

 

The NCE throttle is the same shape and colour but the placement of the buttons is different.

[Ron Ron Ron]

2 hours ago, faulcon1 said:

The NCE throttle is the same shape and colour but the placement of the buttons is different.

Indeed, as I said, a mild evolution of the System One.

There are more enhanced features, such as the number of accessible functions etc, but essentially the  NCE PowerPro is the same nearly 30 year old system, based on what might be considered by modern standards, relatively ancient technology.

 

 

.

[Izzy]

My take on this often asked question is that's it's quite like buying a car. You study all the specs, sit in them in the showroom, even perhaps take them for a spin. But no two suit the individual in the same way and the drawbacks are usually only found when using them on a regular basis, ( like the rotary encoder speed control on both my Prodigy Wi-fi handset failing, once on the wi-fi, twice on the wired even though it's not used from one year to the next), when you may say 'if I'd known this I would have bought something else', only to discover from owners of the 'something else' that they might have equal drawbacks in other areas which wouldn't suit you either.

 

TBH if I had to get a new system now I'd have no more real idea what would be best for me, what I'd like and might do what I wanted whilst being reliable, than someone who hasn't used DCC before.

 

Bob

[RobinofLoxley]

2 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Indeed, as I said, a mild evolution of the System One.

There are more enhanced features, such as the number of accessible functions etc, but essentially the  NCE PowerPro is the same nearly 30 year old system, based on what might be considered by modern standards, relatively ancient technology.

 

 

.

I took one look at the handset, when I was evaluating DCC products for myself. I recall seeing and using items based on the same platform in the 1980's, so that was a thumbs down from me

[WIMorrison]

NCE have also not released their interface specification requiring automation vendors to reverse engineer the interface to make it work - then NCE change it without advising anyone that it has changed and the program authors only find out when people complain that X or Y no longer works correctly 😖

[Crosland]

10 hours ago, WIMorrison said:

NCE have also not released their interface specification requiring automation vendors to reverse engineer the interface to make it work - then NCE change it without advising anyone that it has changed and the program authors only find out when people complain that X or Y no longer works correctly 😖

 

That doesn't ring true at all. 

 

See https://ncedcc.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360048108114-Cab-Bus-Technical-Reference 

 

I've seen very little on the JMRI developers group (where I would expect to) about problems with NCE.

[Andymsa]

On 26/08/2022 at 16:13, Free At Last said:

A friend of mine changed over to dcc about a year ago as he wanted to run sound locos of which he has a dozen or more now. However, he has not delved into what dcc can do, he runs his locos as they came on the default number three. He gets irritated that he had to put locos in a dead siding or remove them from the track because they run when he doesn't want them to. He likes to run them double headed but has problems when one of his locos has the whistle on F2 and the other has active braking on F2. The one with active braking doesn't stop when he turns the speed control to zero and he then has to turn the power off to stop it, he is blaming 'stay alive' which they don't have. I have tried explaining over the phone but I have to give up. He is happy though and swears he would never go back to analogue.

a classic case of leading a horse to water.😀