Mk1 gangway doors

[diyceejay]

What colour were Mk1 gangway doors painted? I'm modelling 1982 blue/grey era and I've seen both white and black doors in images and wondering if there was a standard or was it regional or coach type dictated?

Logistically....was it a sliding door that was locked closed when not being used? Where were those plastic/fabric curtains kept when not hung over the connection? Can anybody direct me to a cut away drawing or even better a video as to how gangways were connected and isolated? Not the couplings - I understand that but struggle with the whole connector/gangway/rubbing plate/curtain/rubber tube/bellows etc etc. Apologies for straying - I'm only paining an n gauge carriage end!

 

[andyman7]

The normal colour for ordinary (non catering) vehicles was off-white. I'm not sure if it was the same shade as the light 'grey' - it just looked dirty white in normal viewing

[keefer]

I think they were sliding doors except if next to a toilet, when they were hinged inwards.

The plastic 'curtains'at the sides just stayed there, they were just hung from the frame as a basic protection for passengers' clothing.

[Wickham Green too]

This should answer two of your questions ..... the colour looks a little creamier than Rail Grey to me - but that could be the angle of the light. ( Curtains removed - no scrap value ! Curtains not fitted - these are semi-enclosed EMU gangways ! )

 

Edited June 28, 2022 by Wickham Green too

[31A]

10 hours ago, diyceejay said:

Can anybody direct me to a cut away drawing or even better a video as to how gangways were connected and isolated?

 

This kind of gangway ("Pullman" type) doesn't need to be connected or disconnected - they are just held together by the pressure of the buffer springs behind the face plates.

[Titan]

1 hour ago, Wickham Green too said:

This should answer two of your questions ..... the colour looks a little creamier than Rail Grey to me - but that could be the angle of the light. ( Curtains removed - no scrap value ! Curtains not fitted - these are semi-enclosed EMU gangways ! )

 

 

Interesting that the coach on the left retains all of its footsteps.  Also I think that the gangways on EMU's were a bit different, so I would not be sure that the colour of their gangway doors would necessarily be a good guide for hauled stock.

Edited June 28, 2022 by Titan

[frobisher]

48 minutes ago, Titan said:

 

Interesting that the coach on the left retains all of its footsteps.  Also I think that the gangways on EMU's were a bit different, so I would not be sure that the colour of their gangway doors would necessarily be a good guide for hauled stock.

 

These are VEP or CIG vehicles so never operated under the wires so the steps never needed removed.

[Wickham Green too]

Yes, that generation of EMU* gangways were a little different in that the bellows was shielded from view - and passengers' clothing - by a telescopic cover ........ but I'd be very surprised if the colour was specified differently. ( Earlier generations of units, such as the CEP and Clacton stock, were built with 100% standard Mk1 gangways.)

 

* REP & TC in my photo ............... actually, most of these coaches would have done loads of miles under the wires before they were incorporated in units !

[The Stationmaster]

The colour of the gangway doors changed when blu/grey livery came in.  Prior to that they were a sort of off-white/cream and subsequently they were done in coaching stock grey.  Coaching stock grey seen away from the two tone livery appears almost white.  It was actually a very pale colour as can be seen below in the photo I took in 1983 -

 

[Morello Cherry]

2 hours ago, frobisher said:

 

These are VEP or CIG vehicles so never operated under the wires so the steps never needed removed.

 

Not that this changes your point about them being 3rd rail vehicles but if they are blue-grey I think they are more likely to be REP or 4TC carriages as I think most CIGs, CEPs, VEPs, BIGs and BEPs survived into privatisation era and were scrapped in every colour scheme other than blue-grey.

[russ p]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

The colour of the gangway doors changed when blu/grey livery came in.  Prior to that they were a sort of off-white/cream and subsequently they were done in coaching stock grey.  Coaching stock grey seen away from the two tone livery appears almost white.  It was actually a very pale colour as can be seen below in the photo I took in 1983 -

 

 

That might have turned light grey with shock Mike! 

[frobisher]

8 hours ago, Morello Cherry said:

 

Not that this changes your point about them being 3rd rail vehicles but if they are blue-grey I think they are more likely to be REP or 4TC carriages as I think most CIGs, CEPs, VEPs, BIGs and BEPs survived into privatisation era and were scrapped in every colour scheme other than blue-grey.

 

Good point! Part of me was distracted by the driving vehicles above thinking "that's not CEPs then..."  There's a good chance then these were former LHS in any case.

 

The giveaway, now I look is the cab front of 3015 on the bottom... So probably mostly REPs then.

 

[Edit] Trick of the light - that must be 8015 (so a TC cab...) as the REPs had been renumbered to the 20XX range from their former 30XX range (which is what I remember from my spotting days...) before withdrawal, and what would have been 3015 became 2015 which donated both its DMSOs to the former Railtrack for reuse so definitely wouldn't have been in the pile! 

 

Edited June 28, 2022 by frobisher

[Wickham Green too]

I did say REP & TC three hours ago .... the full picture 

includes a couple of NPCS and a heap of junk as well - some of it literally heaped. ( Vic Berry's, Leicester 23/12/90 ) 

[rodent279]

3 hours ago, frobisher said:

 

Good point! Part of me was distracted by the driving vehicles above thinking "that's not CEPs then..."  There's a good chance then these were former LHS in any case.

 

The giveaway, now I look is the cab front of 3015 on the bottom... So probably mostly REPs then.

 

No buffers and a row of jumper cables also gives them away as emu stock

[keefer]

Newly refurbished/painted Mk1 RF in 1968 with gangway curtain shown

M308_Wolverton_c1968 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

Mk1 BSK (van end) in the 1980s(?). Notice you can often tell when there's a sliding door, as there are horizontal lines/streaks in the dirt

W35024_Guildford by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

Mk1 BSK (van end) in 1983

46047_Preston_Blackp-York_2-7-83_m by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

I'm not entirely sure but i think hinged doors may have had a recessed round 'handle' half-way up the door, on the LHS

Mk1 RBR (ex-RU) at Carstairs (c) J Howie 

From Jim Howie's Lowland Locomotives (via Wayback Machine)

Edited June 28, 2022 by keefer

[frobisher]

4 hours ago, rodent279 said:

No buffers and a row of jumper cables also gives them away as emu stock

 

The non-drophead Buckeyes were the actual giveaways to me.  It was more a case of what EMUs these were off.  But as I said, a good chunk of the REPs/TCs were rebuilt LHS.

[keefer]

Only the REP DMS were new build (last new Mk1 vehicles built, ending 10/1974) - REP trailers and all TC vehicles were rebuilt LHCS.

Edited June 28, 2022 by keefer

[frobisher]

7 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

I did say REP & TC three hours ago .... the full picture 

includes a couple of NPCS and a heap of junk as well - some of it literally heaped. ( Vic Berry's, Leicester 23/12/90 ) 

There's a lot of interesting things in that pile :) Is that a MK2z in the second row down, first on the left which has a gangway?  And then the one directly underneath to the right is out of a CEP or more likely a BEP catering vehicle possibly?

 

 

[Wickham Green too]

AA1z would, indeed indicate a first batch MkII FK. There's certainly a catering vehicle behind the end of that tank - I'd guess it's from a REP, quite likely via a TCB.

There were all sorts of wonders to be found on that visit from class 15, 24 & 33 locos to departmental stock, UndergrounD coaches for scrap or asbestos removal, diesel, overhead, Isle of Widget & ( other ) third rail units and loco hauled coaches including a couple of royals awaiting the chop.

[keefer]

slightly better pic on a preserved Mk1 RBR - note the handle and the horizontal 'bolt' - i think the sliding doors just had a concealed vertical bolt that used a T-key?

https://shed83a.smugmug.com/CoachingStock/Mk1-Catering/Mk1-RBR-16xx/i-wsvL4qZ/A

I think this variant, with window, was probably on the saloon end of Mk1 RB/RBR

https://shed83a.smugmug.com/CoachingStock/Mk1-Catering/Mk1-RBR-16xx/i-fBHdSk4/A

Edited June 28, 2022 by keefer

[PerthBox]

1 hour ago, keefer said:

I'm not entirely sure but i think hinged doors may have had a recessed round 'handle' half-way up the door, on the LHS

Mk1 RBR (ex-RU) at Carstairs (c) J Howie 

From Jim Howie's Lowland Locomotives (via Wayback Machine)

That’s right, the hinged doors as per the above pic had a handle set in a circular indentation. It’s probably also worth pointing out that the hinged doors had a ‘tower bolt’ for secondary locking while sliding doors had a ‘French pin’ which was retained on a short chain.
 

The General Appendix emphasised that the rubber gangway shrouds had to be disconnected before attempting to uncouple coaches but I’ve never seen an instruction as to where they were supposed to be stowed or whether they could be left hung up (as they often were)

Edited June 28, 2022 by PerthBox

[keefer]

17 minutes ago, PerthBox said:

 

The General Appendix emphasised that the rubber gangway shrouds had to be disconnected before attempting to uncouple coaches

Presumably then they were supposed to be mounted across the 'join' of the two gangways? Hence the instruction. lest they just get pulled to bits when uncoupling.

Probably an idea that was more bother than it was worth - whenever you can see them in pics, they look really manky anyway! i.e. not much cleaner than the gangways themselves.

Edited June 28, 2022 by keefer

[rodent279]

10 hours ago, frobisher said:

 

The non-drophead Buckeyes were the actual giveaways to me.  It was more a case of what EMUs these were off.  But as I said, a good chunk of the REPs/TCs were rebuilt LHS.

I wondered about that-how can you tell the difference between a drop head and a fixed buckeye?

[Bucoops]

17 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

I did say REP & TC three hours ago .... the full picture 

includes a couple of NPCS and a heap of junk as well - some of it literally heaped. ( Vic Berry's, Leicester 23/12/90 ) 

 

Someone needs to close those gangway doors. Passengers could hurt themselves falling that far. H&S you know.

[Titan]

3 hours ago, rodent279 said:

I wondered about that-how can you tell the difference between a drop head and a fixed buckeye?

No buffers = fixed, Buffers = Drop head.

 

Visually difficult to tell from a modeling distance as the business end is the same.

Edited June 29, 2022 by Titan