A LSWR, LBSC & SECR crossover point?

[The Lurker]

There was a connection to the East London Line at Whitechapel (?) so it could be accessed from Liverpool Street. Goods were worked that to New Cross (SER) and New Cross (LBSC) - ie New Cross Gate. I think in later years excursions and rail tours were occasionally worked that way too.

[Compound2632]

29 minutes ago, Morello Cherry said:

The only company who seem to be missing out is the GER.

 

The important part played by the North London Railway in linking the northern main lines to the docks on the one hand and the N&SWJR on the other should not be overlooked.

[Nearholmer]

53 minutes ago, The Lurker said:

There was a connection to the East London Line at Whitechapel (?)

The ELR ran into Liverpool Street via Shoreditch, and there was a further, low capacity, goods interchange via wagon lifts between Shoreditch and Whitechapel.

 

There is another whole thread dedicated to cross-London services in Ye Olden Days, which we are in danger of photocopying here by departing from the OP’s original question.

Edited July 8, 2022 by Nearholmer

[The Stationmaster]

4 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

I think not the services mentioned in that article. 

 

The article queries the origin of the name, and I think it was a lot older, dating to the West End of London and Crystal Palace Railway of the late 1850s, and services over that to/from Paddington once the WLER was opened and while Victoria wasn’t fully established. I am hazy as to which company worked those services, but I think it must have been LBSCR. Do you know for sure?

 

 

There was a stiry about at one time that it was on connection with a service to/from Crystal Palace itself although i think the off ocial name might have come a bit later (yes,  Crystal Palace Loop was its official name).  I have a GWR public TT which includes such things as GWR trains over the Middle Circle so I'll have a look to se if there is any clue in there somewhere. 

[Compound2632]

17 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

There is another whole thread dictated to cross-London services in Ye Olden Days, which we are in danger of photocopying here by departing from the OP’s original question.

 

 

[Lacathedrale]

1 hour ago, The Lurker said:

There was a connection to the East London Line at Whitechapel (?) so it could be accessed from Liverpool Street. Goods were worked that to New Cross (SER) and New Cross (LBSC) - ie New Cross Gate. I think in later years excursions and rail tours were occasionally worked that way too.

 

The GER frequently ran cattle trains into Hither Green, which were then sorted back up the line into London. They also ran a frequent service over the ELR into New Croydon. But, @Compound2632 has happily linked the thread with such interesting revelation.

[Morello Cherry]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

The important part played by the North London Railway in linking the northern main lines to the docks on the one hand and the N&SWJR on the other should not be overlooked.

 

Thanks, I was thinking about companies with services running into Clapham jnc - ie a Liverpool Street to Brighton service alongside the Kings X to Weymouth and Paddington to Brighton.

 

I think if I had a train spotter time machine then Clapham Jnc before 1914 would be worth visit.

[Morello Cherry]

On 08/07/2022 at 11:00, bécasse said:

Reversal at Guildford and then via Havant and Netley is most likely. The reversal at Guildford would present a natural opportunity to re-engine the train with a LSWR loco.

 

This prompts another question - where would the SECR loco have been serviced if it came off at Guildford? Would it have been turned/serviced at Guildford shed even though it was an LSWR shed?

[Compound2632]

26 minutes ago, Morello Cherry said:

 

This prompts another question - where would the SECR loco have been serviced if it came off at Guildford? Would it have been turned/serviced at Guildford shed even though it was an LSWR shed?

 

Not knowing the actual answer but as a general principle, a rental agreement would be in place with charges made for consumables - water, essentially, as the loco would have been coaled for out-and-back at its home shed.

[Nearholmer]

In return for money, it might have been, but it may equally have been attached to the next train to Reading oor Tonbridge, to get it to somewhere from which it could take up useful duties.

 

The “in return for money” thing was dealt with by reciprocal agreements and by “netting off” in many cases. “Netting off” was (still is between TfL and train operators I think) used in respect of quite a few things between the various railways, but goodness alone knows how it would have worked if purchase tax or VAT had been in being at the time ….. even more clerks, I guess!

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, Morello Cherry said:

 

This prompts another question - where would the SECR loco have been serviced if it came off at Guildford? Would it have been turned/serviced at Guildford shed even though it was an LSWR shed?

The usual thing was to apply an agreed charge - thus £x.ys for water, a few pence for use of a turntable and so on.  It would probably only be offset by charges in the opposite direction when it came to the settling up the payments as the amounts going in different directions would inevitably vary unless there was equalised reciprocal running.

 

The way it works in Europe is similar in that where worked mileages 'over the border' don't balance for locos or traincrews there is a cash fee payable.

[Morello Cherry]

I think I might have answered my own question. There was shed at Ash which I guess must have been SECR, so I assume that the engine would have run onto there maybe. The train had changed engines at Redhill.

 

Unfortunately it is somewhat difficult to find much information about Ash Engine Shed because those terms in google just produces a lot of images of pictures of ash rather than Ash.

[Nearholmer]

I get hugely confused about which services went where, and which company ran each in this area pre-electrification, but I thought that Ash Junction engine shed was for the L&SWR Aldershot branch, so theirs, but I may be wrong, the service may have been SECR over LSWR track, so the shed theirs ……. it’s an odd place to have a shed altogether TBH, and I even wondered if it might be mis-captioned, but I think not. It didn’t have a turntable though, which certainly suggest a hutch for a branch tank engine, and not a good place to send the loco from a troop train.

 

Edit: based on further delving I’m now 99% sure the shed, and the branch service from Ash Junction to Aldershot  were SER/SECR, so a logical place to outstation a branch loco, and maybe a spare.

 

Here it is, on the right:

 

 

And, it seems to still exist, repurposed!

 

 

 

Edited July 10, 2022 by Nearholmer

[Morello Cherry]

Yes,  I've gone past it a few times - it is a garage. I wasn't sure if the building was the loco shed or a goods shed. Many years ago I worked with a former fireman who said he'd been based there and I couldn't quite wrap my head around what he was talking about.

 

It seems a strange place to have a shed if you are the LSWR - I'd have thought Aldershot, Farnham or Alton would have made more sense.

 

Oddly, not putting in Ash Engine Shed but Aldershot Engine Shed pulled up this photo on ebay.

 

 

I think I have answered my own question again, and running through to Ash to service looks like a non-starter.

 

But then the RCH map shows Ash as being on the SER. Maybe someone who knows their buildings can identify if it is an SECR building or a LSWR building.

 

 

(There was a discussion in another thread about barrow crossings still in use - Farnborough North, North Camp and Ash are all crossed on the flat ie no bridge or subway - although both Ash and North Camp it is via the level crossing. Ash must be one of the busiest with 8 trains p/h)

[Nearholmer]

My further delving yesterday evening confirmed that the shed was definitely SER/SECR, and that they operated the Ash Junction to Aldershot shuttle trains. I too suspected it must really have been a goods shed, but no.

 

That photo is an absolute cracker, all very model railway, and brings up the point that on the map the shed looks quite long, so maybe the entire branch train went to sleep in it at night. Here I guess the train is a push-pull, and tucked into it while the loco takes coal or water.

 

 

[Compound2632]

If I remember correctly from reading the relevant Bradley many years ago, at one time the Ash-Aldershot shuttle was worked by the two (?) Ramsbottom "Ironclad" 2-4-0s.

 

Perhaps someone with a copy of the book to hand can confirm or correct my recollection!

[Nearholmer]

Weren’t they tender engines, or did they get tanked?

 

Thetes a chap in another thread asking how people get inspiration for models, which leaves me scratching my head a bit, because every time I read about something like this, a complex set of lines, with complex service patterns, operation that was madly inefficient by later standards, I want to build a barn-sized layout in 0 gauge tinplate based on it, ideally using contemporary trains and accessories. A wild excess of inspiration, exceeding all spatial and financial reasonableness!

 

Railways were flipping interesting a long time ago, weren’t they!

 

 

Edited July 11, 2022 by Nearholmer

[Compound2632]

13 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Weren’t they tender engines, or did they get tanked?

 

Always tender, as far as I'm aware. I'm not sure they made it to SECR days; if they did, not for long. And I could be completely misremembering and it was some other pair of engines that were put out to grass there.

[Nick Holliday]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

If I remember correctly from reading the relevant Bradley many years ago, at one time the Ash-Aldershot shuttle was worked by the two (?) Ramsbottom "Ironclad" 2-4-0s.

 

Perhaps someone with a copy of the book to hand can confirm or correct my recollection!

Your memory is correct.  Two Ironclads, Nos. 273 and 275, were transferred from Redhill to Reading in 1903 (some time into SE&CR days).  This pair spent much of their time working the Ash-Aldershot shuttle services, although occasionally they appeared on the 7.12 a.m. Reading to London Bridge, which ran non-stop from Reigate. As more of Stirling's F's and B's were cascaded down, life for Ironclads was getting close to the end. 273 and 275 were some of the last to go, in 1906, but they had been transferred away from reading in the meantime.

2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

My further delving yesterday evening confirmed that the shed was definitely SER/SECR, and that they operated the Ash Junction to Aldershot shuttle trains. I too suspected it must really have been a goods shed, but no.

That photo is an absolute cracker, all very model railway, and brings up the point that on the map the shed looks quite long, so maybe the entire branch train went to sleep in it at night. Here I guess the train is a push-pull, and tucked into it while the loco takes coal or water.

As for Ash shed itself, it is covered well in Hawkins and Reeve's book on Southern Sheds, complete with a drawing of the 1905 version of the building, which, at around 80 feet long is unlikely to have housed the pull-push coaches as well as a loco. It was originally a two road structure, one for locos and the other for goods, but in 1905 the goods shed was removed and, presumably, the engine shed upgraded.  It was classed as a sub-shed of Reading, and in SR days received SE&CR 0-4-4T's. In 1933 it became a sub-shed of Guildford, and M7's became the usual residents.  However, in SECR days the LSWR also stabled a small tank there, from Guildford shed, to work the Tongham line.

[Nearholmer]

Brilliant info, thank you.

 

So presumably the two 2-4-0 tender engines simply ran one way backwards when shuttling.

[Morello Cherry]

23 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Weren’t they tender engines, or did they get tanked?

 

Thetes a chap in another thread asking how people get inspiration for models, which leaves me scratching my head a bit, because every time I read about something like this, a complex set of lines, with complex service patterns, operation that was madly inefficient by later standards, I want to build a barn-sized layout in 0 gauge tinplate based on it, ideally using contemporary trains and accessories. A wild excess of inspiration, exceeding all spatial and financial reasonableness!

 

Railways were flipping interesting a long time ago, weren’t they!

 

 

 

Ash and Aldershot are not the loveliest places on earth and so I can see why they don't lend themselves to being modelled but then I don't know how anyone can look at images like this and not be inspired. There are so many places that had fascinating operations it is not a case of too little inspiration but too much. Do I want to model Ash before 1950, Charlbury before 1950, Minffordd or Porthmadog at the turn of C20, Fort William, Queen Street, a Minories, Victoria BC... more ideas than I have the skills, space or money to fulfil. :)