Does anyone know anything about these weird (American?) signals?

[TEAMYAKIMA]

 

Hello

 

I'm trying to find out more about these weird signals, but I have no idea if they are imported into the UK.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Thanks

Edited July 9, 2022 by TEAMYAKIMA

[Gilbert]

If its available in the Walthers Catalogue someone like Mech Models may be able to get it.

Chris H

[Gilbert]

https://www.walthers.com/pennsylvania-dual-head-home-signal-w-true-color-amber-leds

[TEAMYAKIMA]

3 hours ago, Gilbert said:

If its available in the Walthers Catalogue someone like Mech Models may be able to get it.

Chris H

 

Thanks. TBH I thought they would be one of those cheap Chinese imports which you find on ebay or at shows.

Edited July 9, 2022 by TEAMYAKIMA

[melmerby]

Some on the former B&O:

 

Similar style still in use on the electrified Pennsylvania to Harrisburg line.

[Grovenor]

The idea of the Pennsy signal heads was to replicate the semaphore aspects with white lights so giving the same indications by day and night and eliminating any worry about colourblindness. Hence the heads were arranged to give a row of 3 lamps horizontal for stop, at 45 degrees for caution and vertical for clear. The B&O version modified this by omitting the central lamp so that it became rows of two with the verticals green, the 45 degrees yellow and the horizontals red.

Google will find more details easily enough.

[TEAMYAKIMA]

10 minutes ago, Grovenor said:

The idea of the Pennsy signal heads was to replicate the semaphore aspects with white lights so giving the same indications by day and night and eliminating any worry about colourblindness. Hence the heads were arranged to give a row of 3 lamps horizontal for stop, at 45 degrees for caution and vertical for clear. The B&O version modified this by omitting the central lamp so that it became rows of two with the verticals green, the 45 degrees yellow and the horizontals red.

Google will find more details easily enough.

Many thanks to one and all for the info. 

[Grovenor]

See https://signals.jovet.net/rules/PRR Signal Rules.pdf

[Mike_Walker]

Here are set of classic Pennsy-style position light signals on the Long Island RR at B Tower in Bethpage.  That for the right hand line is showing "clear" the other two are showing stop.  The lower heads can show only the equivalent of yellow or green as required in conjunction with the top head - see the link above posed by Grovenor - in this case all were dark.

 

 

Taken from the cab of a GP38-2 heading a westbound towards the city.

[Jovet]

On 11/09/2022 at 17:21, melmerby said:

Some on the former B&O:

Similar style still in use on the electrified Pennsylvania to Harrisburg line.

 

I'd like to point out that Baltimore and Ohio (B&O) signals are rather different from the Pennsylvania Railroad (PRR) signal inquired about.  The only things the two systems have in common are 1) they're American, 2) they use similar speed-based indications, and 3) they both kind-of use rows of lights.

 

On 12/09/2022 at 07:00, Grovenor said:

The idea of the Pennsy signal heads was to replicate the semaphore aspects with white lights so giving the same indications by day and night and eliminating any worry about colourblindness.

The high signals used a fog-penetrating yellow, not white.  Dwarf and pedestal (a kind of taller, two-headed dwarf) use lunar white lamps.

 

[melmerby]

29 minutes ago, Jovet said:

I'd like to point out that Baltimore and Ohio (B&O) signals are rather different from the Pennsylvania Railroad (PRR) signal inquired about.  The only things the two systems have in common are 1) they're American, 2) they use similar speed-based indications, and 3) they both kind-of use rows of lights.

4) they show the same aspects, albeit with different light colors.

They both mimic an UQ 3 position signal.

 

I often wondered whether the LH running lines e.g. ATSF had them reversed, like the semaphore arms were, or were their colorlights completely different?

[Jovet]

On 09/07/2022 at 08:53, TEAMYAKIMA said:

I'm trying to find out more about these weird signals, but I have no idea if they are imported into the UK.

Any thoughts?

 

Hi.  I am a bit late, but I can tell you a lot about these signals.  This is a Pennsylvania Railroad (PRR) Position-Light (PL) signal.  With the lone lamp down below, it's also intended to be a permissive signal.  (See the signal rules chart already linked in this thread.)

 

To my knowledge they never found any use in the UK, but the small dwarf versions are very similar to modern colorlight shunting signals. 

 

As TEAMYAKIMA pointed out, they were designed to use yellow lamps to mimic the positions of a three-position, right-hand, upper-quadrant semaphore arm. Like the attached picture.

 

The set with rows of three lamps is the third generation of these signals, which were invented in the early 20th century.   The first generation used rows of 4 lamps set with a "tombstone-like" target.  The approximately 1.8 meter wide targets proved to be too much of a wind load, so the next generation trimmed the background targets to follow the contour of the rows of lamps.  It was then realized that three lamps were just as good to distinguish at a distance as four, so the third generation seen to the present day were devised.  The targets are intended to be 52 inches (1.32m) across, with the lights in a chain spaced 18 inches (0.457m) apart.  The center lamp (in the middle of the disk) is generally supposed to be 24 feet (7.3m) above the base of the signal.  When two signal heads are present (or just the center pivot lamp like in the OP), the pivot lamps are 7 feet (2.1m) apart. 

 

In the 1950s, someone decided that Stop should be shown with red lamps, so many of the absolute signals were changed to only show two red lamps horizontally, with the pivot lamp extinguished.  This was actually a terrible idea, since red, and only two lamps, are much less bright at a distance. 

 

Modern usage of these signals is prevalent on Amtrak's Northeast Corridor, where all of the lamps are fully colorized in keeping with the semaphore night aspects.

[Jovet]

58 minutes ago, melmerby said:

4) they show the same aspects, albeit with different light colors.

They both mimic an UQ 3 position signal.

I can see where you try and draw that conclusion from, but the B&O system really is very different.  The Position-Light signals (all fog-penetrating yellow) can lose a lamp, still showing two, and the intended aspect can still be understood.  The B&O Color-Position-Light signals only show two lamps on the main head to begin with, like the semaphore arm, but as they're colored, the intended aspect is still visible if one burns out.  However, the B&O system doesn't use multiple heads at all.  Instead, it uses marker lamps positioned around the main head to indicate speed at this signal and/or the next one.  The marker lamps augment the main head in a very un-semaphore like fashion.  Compare common aspects in the attached graphic.

 

Of note to Europeans:  the Baltimore and Ohio Color-Position-Light signal is the only North American signal design where the showing of Red actually means stop.  Every other signal design, involving multiple "heads," can "show red" when stops are not required.  (This includes Pennsylvania Railroad Position-Light signals, which as originally designed have the second head be dark when not needed, but other railroads that adapted this system did sometimes employ colorized red second heads in that manner.)

 

 

 

[melmerby]

These are on the Amtrak Harrisburg line at Leaman Place.

They appear to be reversed in that they mimic a LQ signal

 

Edited November 7, 2023 by melmerby

[Edwin_m]

2 hours ago, melmerby said:

These are on the Amtrak Harrisburg line at Leaman Place.

They appear to be reversed in that they mimic a LQ signal

 

I think they're actually replicating an UQ signal positioned to the right of the track and laterally inverted compared with the UK version, as mentioned in previous posts.  

[melmerby]

6 hours ago, Edwin_m said:

I think they're actually replicating an UQ signal positioned to the right of the track and laterally inverted compared with the UK version, as mentioned in previous posts.  

Yes. I'm getting my right & left hands mixed up.☹️

Some lines worked the other way round with left pointing signals to the left of the track. (EDIT but not these)

 

EDIT

Closer look shows they are RH facing!

 

BTW, those subs on the Harrisburg line only seem to light when the crossovers are being used.

Edited November 7, 2023 by melmerby

[Jovet]

On 07/11/2023 at 06:14, Edwin_m said:

I think they're actually replicating an UQ signal positioned to the right of the track and laterally inverted compared with the UK version, as mentioned in previous posts.  

That is correct.  The graphic I posted on Monday shows the similarities.

 

On 06/11/2023 at 16:57, melmerby said:

I often wondered whether the LH running lines e.g. ATSF had them reversed, like the semaphore arms were, or were their colorlights completely different?

 

I'm sorry, I had intended to give an answer to this question before. 

 

The answer is: generally, no.  ATSF semaphore blades, for example, still pointed to the right.  The Chicago and Northwestern's did, too.  There are examples of some left-pointing semaphore blades back in the day, but I don't myself know if they're related to left-hand running or not.  The New Haven Railroad is the only example I can think of off the top of my head.