1956 Carlisle-London milk train question

[spikey]

I have before me the September 1959 "Trains Illustrated", in which is a photograph that has me scratching my head.  I saw a fair number of milk trains in my trainspotting days. but I don't ever recall seeing the likes of this.  On May 20th 1956, 46100 "Royal Scot" is pictured near Tebay at the head of a Carlisle-London milk train consisting of 8 tankers, then  van of some kind, then a passenger carriage (9-10 windows) and finally what I assume is a passenger brake van which is about half the length of the carriage.  Unfortunately the repro's too iffy to make out much more than that.

 

What would be the likely purpose of the carriage (i.e. would that be ordinary paying passengers)?  And what sort of brake van looked like half a full-size carriage?

 

 

[Paul H Vigor]

9 minutes ago, spikey said:

I have before me the September 1959 "Trains Illustrated", in which is a photograph that has me scratching my head.  I saw a fair number of milk trains in my trainspotting days. but I don't ever recall seeing the likes of this.  On May 20th 1956, 46100 "Royal Scot" is pictured near Tebay at the head of a Carlisle-London milk train consisting of 8 tankers, then  van of some kind, then a passenger carriage (9-10 windows) and finally what I assume is a passenger brake van which is about half the length of the carriage.  Unfortunately the repro's too iffy to make out much more than that.

 

What would be the likely purpose of the carriage (i.e. would that be ordinary paying passengers)?  And what sort of brake van looked like half a full-size carriage?

 

 

Sounds like a very long haul for milk??

[spikey]

17 minutes ago, Paul H Vigor said:

Sounds like a very long haul for milk??

 

That's what I thought, but that's what the caption says.

[Wheatley]

There was a Carlisle-London milk, see several earlier threads on here. A six wheeled passenger brakevan (eg LMS Stove R) is about half the length of a carriage, and the carriage itself could be an empty being returned to somewhere via a convenient fully-fitted train. 

[Nearholmer]

It’s not a Palethorpe’s sausage van is it? Some of the later ones looked a bit like passenger coaches.

 

Or, a brake coach that was in use as a van on an attached portion of the train?

 

I think the marshalling instructions for this train are in another thread.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 12, 2022 by Nearholmer

[Wheatley]

There was a 40ft bogie cream van which had windows down one side but only 5 and a couple of sets of double doors. There were also several full brakes converted from Period 1 CKs, they had 11 large-ish windows on the corridor side, but all but 2 were plated over or converted to double doors as part of the BG conversions. Are they definitely windows or could they be played over windows on a panelled coach ?

 

Is there a photographer credit on the photo ? It may be online somewhere. 

Edited July 12, 2022 by Wheatley

[Aire Head]

14 hours ago, Paul H Vigor said:

Sounds like a very long haul for milk??

 

14 hours ago, spikey said:

 

That's what I thought, but that's what the caption says.

 

About as long as it got but sufficient traffic generated to send trains from Carlisle down the WCML and the Midland Mainline in the period in question.

[spikey]

11 hours ago, Wheatley said:

... Is there a photographer credit on the photo ? It may be online somewhere. 

 

Picture credited to one J.E.Wilkinson.

[Caley739]

My interpretation of the stock is 8 milk tanks, horsebox, non corridor 3rd, Stove R Brake. As already mentioned this was a long standing train in the timetable. From many other photos of the same train going back as far as LNWR days it seems to have also been used for any miscellaneous NPS vehicles which had accumulated at Carlisle. The passenger coach is likely to be empty stock, possibly for Wolverton Works.

[spikey]

Mystery solved, I believe.  Thank you one and all 🙂

[Caley739]

This was a high priority train. It ran with class 1 express lamps. The only other non passenger carrying train accorded this privilege was The West Coast Postal. It was authorised to convey a maximum of 20 loaded tanks which would be over 600 tons, although it usually ran with less thsn the max. The main reason for using a 6 wheel Stove R, apart from a comparitively smooth ride for the guard, was the Stove. Usually some tanks were marshalled in rear of the van to steady the ride. If for any reason a Stove R van was not available a standard BR 20T goods brake was used because of the all important stove. I don't think any of the LMS bogie passenger vans were equipped with a stove.

[lmsforever]

There was a milk factory beside the MR mainline somewhere near Hendon that would be the destination of this train ,the factory was supplied by trains along the line and the product destined for customers in NW  London. Also think that Express Dairies the main customer.

[Michael Hodgson]

On 12/07/2022 at 17:51, Paul H Vigor said:

Sounds like a very long haul for milk??

Yes it is, but there's a lot of cows in Cumberland and a lot of Londoners want milk in their afternoon cuppa, but it's been a very long time since Lincoln's Inn Fields contained cattle for the beneift of the legal profession.

[Paul H Vigor]

5 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Yes it is, but there's a lot of cows in Cumberland and a lot of Londoners want milk in their afternoon cuppa, but it's been a very long time since Lincoln's Inn Fields contained cattle for the beneift of the legal profession.

And there's quite a few thirsty Mancunians, Yam-Yams and Brummies in between! 🥸

[Paul H Vigor]

22 hours ago, Caley739 said:

This was a high priority train. It ran with class 1 express lamps. The only other non passenger carrying train accorded this privilege was The West Coast Postal. It was authorised to convey a maximum of 20 loaded tanks which would be over 600 tons, although it usually ran with less thsn the max. The main reason for using a 6 wheel Stove R, apart from a comparitively smooth ride for the guard, was the Stove. Usually some tanks were marshalled in rear of the van to steady the ride. If for any reason a Stove R van was not available a standard BR 20T goods brake was used because of the all important stove. I don't think any of the LMS bogie passenger vans were equipped with a stove.

Train not piped for steam heating.