A first look at German N Scale (c.1960s)

[Keith Addenbrooke]

Thread title changed 7/8/22 from: ‘A question about shorter N Scale DB coaches’ as topic widened.
 

I appreciated help with a recent question on German TT, thank you (separate thread).  I hope it’s OK to ask my follow-up about N-Scale?  I’m aware of the history of ‘shorty’ passenger cars in HO scaled to 1:100 lengthwise rather than 1:87 (for train set curves and table top layouts).  I’m wondering if the same was done with some N-Scale coaches too?

 

I’ve acquired a few N Scale coaches at prices that were too good to resist, including these two first class passenger cars (as examples):

 

 

The upper coach is an Atlas (Rivarossi?) model #2681.  It’s about 163mm long so scales to the expected 86’ at 1:160.

 

The lower coach is Minitrix model #13009.  It’s just over 130mm long.  At a modified scale of 1:200 it would also scale to 86’ which makes me wonder if it’s a shorty?  At 1:160 it’s about 69’ (21m).  Personally I’ll still be quite happy with it even if it is undersized, as I have some matching coaches (so I don’t need to mix them).  I’m just wondering if someone could enlighten me purely out of interest.  Thanks, Keith.

 

Edited August 7, 2022 by Keith Addenbrooke
Title Change for extra posts as topic widened.

[Keith Addenbrooke]

I’ve also picked up a locomotive which I guess is about was made by Arnold around the same time as the Minitrix coaches (the Arnold box says ‘Made in Western Germany’).  It’s a very good runner, although the front light is missing.  I was able to test run it before purchasing, so knew what I was getting.  Clearly not a recent model - the flanges are a bit of a giveaway - it’s the kind of German loco that used to captivate me when I saw them at exhibitions or in Continental Modeller when I was growing up (I had British N in those days):

 

 

Simple question: is my memory correct - would these have been seen hauling the coaches in my first post (I’m thinking c 1967)?  Just wondering - I’m afraid my knowledge is minimal.  I’m very much a beginner again, so any advice is welcome.  Thanks, Keith.

 

Edited July 27, 2022 by Keith Addenbrooke
(Clarification as rear lights work)

[Erichill16]

I think shorty coaches were to look better on trains set curves, less overhang.

Loco and coaches would be ok together.

Shorty coach is a little bit later as it has a computer number, as indicated be the -5 at the end.

I think the computer check digit came in the late 60s so a train from the late 60s may  have stock with or without the extra check digit . 

[Keith Addenbrooke]

26 minutes ago, Erichill16 said:

I think shorty coaches were to look better on trains set curves, less overhang.

Loco and coaches would be ok together.

Shorty coach is a little bit later as it has a computer number, as indicated be the -5 at the end.

I think the computer check digit came in the late 60s so a train from the late 60s may  have stock with or without the extra check digit . 

Thank you - that’s really helpful (I was born in 1967, so have an interest in that year).  I also owe Messrs Arnold an apology for underestimating their engineering - I’ve just run a quick night-time test with the Pacific.  Not only do all three rear lights work, but two front lights work tucked behind the buffer beam do too (I’d know them as ‘ditch lights’ but that may be US railroading terminology).  I’d assumed a hole in the smokebox door was for a headlamp - perhaps it is?  Knowing my luck it’s possibly fallen inside, so I’ll need to take it all apart at some point.  The body needs a bit of cleaning up, but I think it’s been stored for a while.  Obviously I’m even more impressed with the loco now 😃.  I have the instructions, which seem clear enough.  Thanks again, Keith.

 

Edited July 27, 2022 by Keith Addenbrooke

[Erichill16]

Yes the hole is definitely for a light, you can see a conduit for the electric cabling. Post 2WW most West German (DB) steam locos had this third light added.

Between the end of 2WW upto the late 60s and computerisation of the numbers  is known as Era III. After this date and until about 1990 is know as Era IV.

[bbishop]

Keith, you may not wish to change to O Gauge.  Your 26.4M coach equates to 2 foot long.  Bill

[Gordonwis]

Avoid the shorty coaches - very unrealistic. 

 

The top coach in your first photo is a roughly correct scale length DB UIC X coach. This type of coach (and other standard DB coaches ) was made in scale length by Minitrix, Fleischmann, Roco and Arnold - and as you have seen Atlas/Rivarossi. All can be found reasonably cheaply unboxed at toy fairs , shows etc as they have largely been superseded by better '21st century' tooling models.

 

The old N gauge steam loco models were made in their thousands (the era before limited runs...) and can be picked up cheaply second hand if you strike the right show/collectors fair

 

If you are happy with robust but not terribly accurate / detailed by 2022 standards models then carry on buying!

 

Minitrix also did an 01 (01 236) in the late 1960s and mine still just about runs ( similar was offered for sale I think on the N gauge forum a short while ago) . Fleischmann did an 012 .

 

computerised numbering was introduced in 1968/9 when 01 177 became 001 177. So for 1967 pre UIC number is accurate.

 

At that time express train were often formed of homogeneous sets of UIC X (aka Am/Bm) coaches, all dark clue for 1st class and all dull green for 2nd class.

 

 

[Keith Addenbrooke]

7 hours ago, Gordonwis said:

Avoid the shorty coaches - very unrealistic. 

 

The top coach in your first photo is a roughly correct scale length DB UIC X coach. This type of coach (and other standard DB coaches ) was made in scale length by Minitrix, Fleischmann, Roco and Arnold - and as you have seen Atlas/Rivarossi. All can be found reasonably cheaply unboxed at toy fairs , shows etc as they have largely been superseded by better '21st century' tooling models.

 

The old N gauge steam loco models were made in their thousands (the era before limited runs...) and can be picked up cheaply second hand if you strike the right show/collectors fair

 

If you are happy with robust but not terribly accurate / detailed by 2022 standards models then carry on buying!

 

Minitrix also did an 01 (01 236) in the late 1960s and mine still just about runs ( similar was offered for sale I think on the N gauge forum a short while ago) . Fleischmann did an 012 .

 

computerised numbering was introduced in 1968/9 when 01 177 became 001 177. So for 1967 pre UIC number is accurate.

 

At that time express train were often formed of homogeneous sets of UIC X (aka Am/Bm) coaches, all dark clue for 1st class and all dull green for 2nd class.

 

 

Thanks Gordon, good advice as always.  A source for older, robust N-Gauge locomotives at very affordable prices can be meetings of the 009 Society - it’s where I spotted the Pacific.  These German N purchases are more about my childhood memories of early N Gauge (my own layout was UK outline), so where I may take it is not yet certain.  I’ve also got the TT project as well as my Narrow gauge, but it’s very helpful to have the prototype background as a basis for what I’ve bought.  Looks like I’ve got exactly what I wanted.  Thanks again, Keith.

[Nick_Burman]

22 hours ago, bbishop said:

Keith, you may not wish to change to O Gauge.  Your 26.4M coach equates to 2 foot long.  Bill

 

Rivarossi used to make similar coaches in O scale. I've seen one and despite it's age the coach looked as if it had been made yesterday, such was the quality of the tooling. However it was HUGE, it would be impossible to run it (or a train of such coaches) in a home layout. Stick to the N scale ones...

 

Cheers NB

 

[bbishop]

This idiot converted to O Gauge about 50 years ago, then to Spur Null about a decade back.  I have some Kiss 26.4M coaches (Mitteleinsteigwagen and green Silberfisch).  Absolutely gorgeous, but they aren't coming to the small layout competition at Guildex in September.  The through train will be a couple of pre WW2 coaches, a Gr 28 and a Gr36.

[Keith Addenbrooke]

My first layout was UK N-Gauge in the late 1970s.  However, I’ve rather shied away from returning to N on the basis I’d find it a bit fiddly now.  I’m sure I’m not alone in this.  As I’ve been having plenty of fun with H0e / HOn30 however, my confidence has now reached the point where I could investigate the missing headlight on my BR 01.  This is how I got on.  Before:

 

 

(Picture repeated from above)

 

Removing the body is quite simple, with a single 10mm screw to undo - something I think was quite standard when this was made:

 

 

 

The boiler, cab and running plate then lifted off.  It did catch me out when a solid metal weight slid out of the boiler, but it’s a good use of the space:

 

 

No sign of a light fitting for the smokebox headlight though.  Carefully lifting the thin sheet above the motor explained all:

 

 

The two lower lights are illuminated via a light bar from a single, central bulb (this model pre-dates the LEDs on my Tillig TT Electric Locomotives).  The hole in the sheet would allow a vertical light bar to connect the bulb with the headlight, via the slot in the front of the metal weight.  That light bar is simply missing, quite possibly lost long ago.

 

I should perhaps explain at this point that I bought the loco from my local 009 Society Area Group, who were really selling it for a chassis conversion, so no complaints on my part about the missing part (especially at the price I paid).

 

Having explained my problem, but with no immediate solution, it just remained for me to put it all back together again (if I could) and do a further test run, to convince me I can work with N-Scale:

 

 

After: in a further piece of good news, all it took to remove the small bits of muck from the body was a gentle swish of a soft brush - it was just accumulated dust 😀.   If I come across a thin enough piece of Perspex (or equivalent) I’m sure it’ll be possible to make the light work again, but at least I know what the issue is, and I managed not to break or lose anything.

 

Incidentally, one distinct advantage I’m finding with N-Scale over H0e is that it is much easier to put rolling stock on the track, as I’m not fiddling about under the sides of a much wider body.  An unexpected benefit.  Hope this is of use to someone, Keith.

[Gordonwis]

Take a look here:

 

 

 

Spur-N-Teile.de - Der Spur-N-Spezialist - Arnold BR 01 (alte Ausführung)

 

https://spur-n-teile.de/arnold-br01-alt/

 

Edited August 7, 2022 by Gordonwis

[Keith Addenbrooke]

8 hours ago, Gordonwis said:

Take a look here:

 

 

 

Spur-N-Teile.de - Der Spur-N-Spezialist - Arnold BR 01 (alte Ausführung)

 

https://spur-n-teile.de/arnold-br01-alt/

 

Spot on, thank you - a very useful website to know about.  €2.99 for the light bar (0221-13) would be worth it, and it’d be easy enough to fit, but I think the website is also telling me that shipping to the UK would be €19.99.  If I’ve read that correctly, it’ll have to wait, though it wouldn’t be difficult to find other things to buy from there - looks to be a real treasure trove.  Thanks, Keith.

[Gordonwis]

On 08/08/2022 at 07:21, Keith Addenbrooke said:

Spot on, thank you - a very useful website to know about.  €2.99 for the light bar (0221-13) would be worth it, and it’d be easy enough to fit, but I think the website is also telling me that shipping to the UK would be €19.99.  If I’ve read that correctly, it’ll have to wait, though it wouldn’t be difficult to find other things to buy from there - looks to be a real treasure trove.  Thanks, Keith.

 

I have ordered several times from them. I think they are one of the firms that uses a high shipping fee to compensate for loss of revenue in other parts of the selling process.

 

Notwithstanding I ordered a batch of stuff and it is often cheaper than buying from manufacturers' spare parts sources (eg Fleischmann) 

[Keith Addenbrooke]

I do seem to be slipping into ‘retro-N’: these were £10 for all 27 in the Model Shop bargain bin this morning - good enough for me:

 

Plenty of emergency services vehicles for the obligatory disaster cameo scenes.  All plastic with moulded wheels and axles as part of the base (except the larger trucks) - most of the cars are stamped Fleischmann on the base.

 

I don’t know when passenger side wing / door mirrors became a requirement in Germany, but the absence of them on the cars is perhaps a clue to the appropriate era for these.  Have a good weekend, Keith.

[bbishop]

On 08/08/2022 at 07:21, Keith Addenbrooke said:

Spot on, thank you - a very useful website to know about.  €2.99 for the light bar (0221-13) would be worth it, and it’d be easy enough to fit, but I think the website is also telling me that shipping to the UK would be €19.99.  If I’ve read that correctly, it’ll have to wait, though it wouldn’t be difficult to find other things to buy from there - looks to be a real treasure trove.  Thanks, Keith.

Keith, I have a friend in Potsdam who would be happy to have your item posted to him.  He is coming to Guildex at the end of the month and would bring it with him.  I have a crate of items for him!  Bill

[Keith Addenbrooke]

12 minutes ago, bbishop said:

Keith, I have a friend in Potsdam who would be happy to have your item posted to him.  He is coming to Guildex at the end of the month and would bring it with him.  I have a crate of items for him!  Bill

Thank you - I’ll send a PM if I get time tomorrow afternoon or Monday if that’s OK?
 

In other news, another second hand bargain purchase arrived today - something else I just happened to see while looking around the internet (I was searching for TT at the time but this was far too good to pass on):

 

 

It’s a Roco V200 in near perfect condition.  I don’t know how old the model is (it has a polystyrene box so presumably not that new, and it has a screw on the roof to release the body too - same as the Pacific).  It performed amazingly well straight from the box, gliding up and down a length of H0e track effortlessly on minimum power like it was showing off - slow running is no problem. Directional lights are all present and correct too.  If it continues like this it was ridiculously good value for money in my view.

 

My test track layout isn’t set up at the moment, so I can’t test it on curves and points, but there’s nothing to suggest it will be a problem (My test track layout is also H0e - I don’t even have any real N gauge track at the moment).

 

I mentioned a few days ago on @47606odin’s exciting new O-Gauge thread that it’s the purchase of the second locomotive in a new direction that I think marks the point of transition between curiosity and serious intent, so I’ll just leave this here for now:

 

 

If my research has been correct (I don’t speak German, sadly), then Br 01 177 was scrapped in 1968, so just before the UIC numbering with check digits came in 1969, but the real question for me is what am I going to do with these bits I’m collecting?
 

Stay cool, and enjoy the rest of the weekend, Keith.

[ColinK]

I have a load of German N gauge stock which I bought in the late 70s/early 80s and built a couple of layouts which have long since gone. But I kept all the stock  and have plans for a small portable layout when I have the time.

[47606odin]

6 hours ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

 

I mentioned a few days ago on @47606odin’s exciting new O-Gauge thread that it’s the purchase of the second locomotive in a new direction that I think marks the point of transition between curiosity and serious intent, so I’ll just leave this here for now:

well, does 2 coaches and another wagon count whilst waiting for said second ordered loco to come into stock

[Keith Addenbrooke]

13 hours ago, 47606odin said:

well, does 2 coaches and another wagon count whilst waiting for said second ordered loco to come into stock

Definitely: the second loco has been ordered - and you’ve not stopped there 😀.  
 

Given your impressive weathering, which seems to me to be very effective without being overstated, plus the video updates, I’d say your modelling is in a different league to mine altogether.  I’m more at the level of “if I can do it, anyone can - and I mean it!”

 

Have a good week, Keith.

[47606odin]

4 hours ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

Definitely: the second loco has been ordered - and you’ve not stopped there 😀.  
 

Given your impressive weathering, which seems to me to be very effective without being overstated, plus the video updates, I’d say your modelling is in a different league to mine altogether.  I’m more at the level of “if I can do it, anyone can - and I mean it!”

 

Have a good week, Keith.

to be fair, that’s my level of modelling

[Keith Addenbrooke]

On 13/08/2022 at 21:37, Keith Addenbrooke said:

the real question for me is what am I going to do with these bits I’m collecting?

It may be beginners’ luck, but my first look at retro-N has been encouraging.  I have family commitments this week and then some time off, which I noted in my main Narrow Gauge thread I want to use to prioritise my projects.  I know I need to be very careful with my plans as I’ve had too many well-intentioned false starts.

 

With projects in TT and H0e / HOn30 I hadn’t planned to try N, but the availability, price and quality of the older German N items I’ve bought has been excellent.  It’s made it far too easy!  To help me think I’ve therefore ordered some wagons and a simple Setrack test oval with 4th radius curves which I’ll get delivered in a week or so.  Being able to buy 4th radius (333.4mm) Setrack is a luxury we didn’t have when I last modelled N-Gauge: in those days the only choice was 228mm (9”).

 

I may be changing my mind about N-Scale being too small for me: the track and bogies (etc.) are the same size as my H0e, but with the advantage of easier to rail standard gauge stock (which I’d not thought of).  I’ve not built an N-Scale kit for about forty years though, so perhaps that would be a logical next step to try?  Anyway, this will be all for now.  Thanks for the help so far, Keith.

 

[Gordonwis]

8 hours ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

I hadn’t planned to try N, but the availability, price and quality of the older German N items I’ve bought has been excellent.  It’s made it far too easy!  

 

 

 

If you don't mind the old tech in the type of locos you've been buying and you are happy to stick with pre-1970 you are on to a winner for the following reasons:

 

1) West German prototype was the main subject of N gauge models in the 1960s - 80s

2) manufacturers were slow to change their models from pre UIC to UIC numbering. I remember in the early days of my N gauge modelling (1971 - 75 ish) being incredibly frustrated that I couldn't replicate the then current UIC numbering easily as so many available models still only had the pre UIC numbering

3) at that time models were made in their hundreds of thousands, not the limited runs we see today, so there are loads floating around out there on the second hand market

 

[Keith Addenbrooke]

A Station Building.  I do like Station Buildings (I have several kits in my stash already).  So I had a look to see what was available in German N here in the UK.  The Faller N Scale Bahnhof “Shwarzburg” kit caught my eye, and the big box arrived today:

 

 

I went for this one for several reasons:

• I like the style with the timber-framed upper stories.  The TT Auhagen “Moorbach” kit I’ve got also has them.  That has been identified for me elsewhere in this Forum as based on Manebach in Thuringia, the same state as Schwarzburg.  It does mean they’re based on East German prototypes, but I wouldn’t be planning to model Schwarzburg itself.
• That said, a second reason it’s a good prototype is that the station appears to be out of town - if so, it is prototypical to have it backed by open countryside.  Although it’s quite a large kit for a model railway, I think it actually serves a small rural town.
• I’m more interested in passenger operation than freight and this kit gives me a nice all-in-one Combination depot. From what I can tell, the goods depot end of the station has been shortened from the prototype, and a canopy at that end that is visible in some photos I’ve found isn’t included, but it still seems quite well proportioned to me.
• I got it half-price but new and still factory sealed, making it excellent value (and within my budget).
• The kit has 388 pieces in it - the big box is quite full!  I have to admit I do fancy the challenge - the family enjoy doing jigsaws, so can also understand the appeal:

 

 

Some other bits and pieces have been arriving, following a sale of some surplus stock and other bits and pieces I no longer needed.  I now have a few goods wagons, plus the Setrack 4th radius oval for running in I mentioned in my Aug 15th post.

 

Do I have a plan?  To be honest I’m rather enjoying not working to a plan and just seeing how I get on.  Have a good weekend, Keith.

Edited August 25, 2022 by Keith Addenbrooke

[Gordonwis]

2 hours ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

 

 

• That said, a second reason it’s a good prototype is that the station appears to be out of town - if so, it is prototypical to have it backed by open countryside.  Although it’s quite a large kit for a model railway, I think it actually serves a small rural town.
•  

 

 

I can think of a good many places in Germany where the station is on the 'edge' of town, it seems to be a trait