DM198715 Midland Railway Clerestory (Bath Green Park) Breakdown Train Tool / Riding Van

[phil_sutters]

While on the subject of one-off vehicles at Green Park, back in my youth, around 1969, I built a number of S&DJR wagons. Most were based on the official photos and some known dimensions and photos in Atthill or Barrie & Clinker - the only two reference books I had at that time. However this weird hybrid was made using a photo of a model in a model railway magazine of the time - possibly MRN. It may have been in 7mm/1ft.

Does anyone know if this existed in 12"/1ft? Is there a photo of the real thing? Is the photo of the model still around?

[andreas]

Excellent work John. Your breakdown train looks just like the real thing.

 

On 29/03/2023 at 15:34, cctransuk said:

The riding van is something of an 'interpretation', as all I could find to work from were background crops of photos - though I think that the essential features are captured; the vehicle number is an educated guess!

I'm afraid I'm half a year late now, but perhaps the information is still useful. 

 

The riding van was DM198698M. I have found the attached picture, which nicely shows its side in what must have been the early 1950s. The SDRT also have a great photo available: https://www.sdrt.org/product/Bath-Green-Park-MR-Coach-DM198698M-On-Shed-05-08-62/.

I'm not sure which diagram this coach originally was. Based on the spacing between windows it could have started off as a non-corridor first. The SDRT site mentions a built date of 1909, but the contemporary D481 48ft non corridor first doesn't match.

 

The tool van must have changed over time. The attached photo shows no. 116097 but the one visible in some 1960s photos is definitely different. See for example https://www.flickr.com/photos/taffytank/44740057460/. [Edit: 116097 must have been an ex-GWR van, which appeared between 8/51 and 11/52 and lasted until c 1961. Afterwards, an LMS van with sliding doors took over, the number of which I cannot make out, but it definitely ends in 5, likely in 5925.]

 

Edited July 26, 2023 by andreas

[cctransuk]

26 minutes ago, andreas said:

Excellent work John. Your breakdown train looks just like the real thing.

 

I'm afraid I'm half a year late now, but perhaps the information is still useful. 

 

The riding van was DM198698M. I have found the attached picture, which nicely shows its side in what must have been the early 1950s. The SDRT also have a great photo available: https://www.sdrt.org/product/Bath-Green-Park-MR-Coach-DM198698M-On-Shed-05-08-62/.

I'm not sure which diagram this coach originally was. Based on the spacing between windows it could have started off as a non-corridor first. The SDRT site mentions a built date of 1909, but the contemporary D481 48ft non corridor first doesn't match.

 

The tool van must have changed over time. The attached photo shows no. 116097 but the one visible in some 1960s photos is definitely different. See for example https://www.flickr.com/photos/taffytank/44740057460/

 

 

Thank you so much - a renumbering is planned, and some detail changes.

 

CJI.

[andreas]

On 29/03/2023 at 23:38, phil_sutters said:

While on the subject of one-off vehicles at Green Park, back in my youth, around 1969, I built a number of S&DJR wagons. Most were based on the official photos and some known dimensions and photos in Atthill or Barrie & Clinker - the only two reference books I had at that time. However this weird hybrid was made using a photo of a model in a model railway magazine of the time - possibly MRN. It may have been in 7mm/1ft.

Does anyone know if this existed in 12"/1ft? Is there a photo of the real thing?

 

The weird and wonderful van/wagon hybrid did indeed exist. SDRT Bulletins no. 138 and 258 contain articles with some photos, identifying the van as LMS no. 358464. The photos date from 1948, but I'm reasonably certain I can spot the vehicle lurking in the background of a photo from August 1951. However, by November 1952, the previously mentioned (GWR?) van no. 116097 had taken its place, only to be replaced again in c1961 by a LMS van with sliding doors.

 

P.s. Bulletin 138 mentions the article you must have seen was in Model Railway News May 1952

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, andreas said:

The weird and wonderful van/wagon hybrid did indeed exist. SDRT Bulletins no. 138 and 258 contain articles with some photos, identifying the van as LMS no. 358464. The photos date from 1948, but I'm reasonably certain I can spot the vehicle lurking in the background of a photo from August 1951.

 

Is there any clue as to when it was built? Surely before Highbridge Works closed in 1930 as it has all the hallmarks of that institution's wit. The van body part is presumably recycled from one of the 16' 6" Road Vans built at Derby and by S.J. Claye in 1896; I'm wondering if the underframe was recycled from a 6-wheeled carriage, though with goods running gear fitted. About 25' 6" long? 

[phil_sutters]

3 hours ago, andreas said:

 

The weird and wonderful van/wagon hybrid did indeed exist. SDRT Bulletins no. 138 and 258 contain articles with some photos, identifying the van as LMS no. 358464. The photos date from 1948, but I'm reasonably certain I can spot the vehicle lurking in the background of a photo from August 1951. However, by November 1952, the previously mentioned (GWR?) van no. 116097 had taken its place, only to be replaced again in c1961 by a LMS van with sliding doors.

 

P.s. Bulletin 138 mentions the article you must have seen was in Model Railway News May 1952

Many thanks for locating this photo and identifying where I must have seen the model. I think that it must have been a back number my Dad acquired, as I would have only been six at that date. The question is now whether I add details to my original model or do I start from scratch. My inclination is the latter, as I have not 'improved' my old 1960s models since my railway modelling renaissance. Although I am not quite sure how it would have got onto Highbridge Wharf, one could surmise that, having had attention in the Wagon Works, it was brought there to be marshalled in an outgoing goods train. The wharf and the goods shed just the other side of the A38, as it now is, were the S&D's goods yard at Highbridge.

[andreas]

11 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Is there any clue as to when it was built? Surely before Highbridge Works closed in 1930 as it has all the hallmarks of that institution's wit. The van body part is presumably recycled from one of the 16' 6" Road Vans built at Derby and by S.J. Claye in 1896; I'm wondering if the underframe was recycled from a 6-wheeled carriage, though with goods running gear fitted. About 25' 6" long? 

I haven't seen a build date but SDRT Bulletin 258 surmises it must have been (re)built at Highbridge between 1900 and 1919. 

The van half is indeed almost identical to Derby-built S&D road vans, except for some planking and strapping details. The wagon part is said to be similar to Midland ex-PO 4-plank wagons as used in the 1870s and 80s. Bulletin 138 assumes a 9' 6" + 9' 6" wheelbase but I haven't seen anything definite.

[Compound2632]

44 minutes ago, andreas said:

The van half is indeed almost identical to Derby-built S&D road vans, except for some planking and strapping details. 

 

There might, possibly, have been some detail differences between the S.J. Claye-built Road Vans and the Derby-built ones; equally possible is a Highbridge close copy. But I'm still inclined to think it's an existing body re-purposed - the re-purposing might well involve some modifications to the ironwork. The Road Vans were split between the LSWR and MR along with all other S&DJR non-service goods wagons in 1914, so that would perhaps point to a pre-1914 date for the vehicle.

 

44 minutes ago, andreas said:

The wagon part is said to be similar to Midland ex-PO 4-plank wagons as used in the 1870s and 80s. 

 

Which is as much as to say it looks like a wagon, since (to exaggerate a bit) no two of the Midland ex-POs bought up from 1882 onwards (not 1870s) were the same!

 

The door ironwork - hinges and J-shaped strap plates - are very similar to the components used on the standard Midland 8-ton wagons and their S&DJR equivalents, but are a few inches shorter. It would be perfectly within Highbridge's capabilities to modify existing components though what I would be interested to understand is whether in general Highbridge forged its own metal components or bought them in. The round end is typical of Highbridge's habit of grafting LSWR design ideas onto Midland-type wagons.

Edited July 27, 2023 by Compound2632

[phil_sutters]

21 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

The door ironwork - hinges and J-shaped strap plates - are very similar to the components used on the standard Midland 8-ton wagons and their S&DJR equivalents, but are a few inches shorter. It would be perfectly within Highbridge's capabilities to modify existing components though what I would be interested to understand is whether in general Highbridge forged its own metal components or bought them in. The round end is typical of Highbridge's habit of grafting LSWR design ideas onto Midland-type wagons.

Highbridge Works 35 years after it closed

Colin Maggs in his 'Highbridge in its heyday' lists the various trades in the works. They included - Wagon builders, Bodymakers (for coaches and associated stock), Painters, Carpenters, Smiths with associated specialists in making fittings like couplings, trunions and buffers, Springsmiths, Tinman, Turners, Fitters, Pattern makers, Coppersmith, Boilermakers, Driller, Carriage fitters and Carriage makers for drays etc. The Gas fitter also dealt with electric work and was the Works' plumber. The book has a good number of photographs of some of these trades at work - or at least standing in their workshops waiting for the official works photographer to 'expose a plate'. I imagine he was also responsible for making the blueprints used in the works. The little book is a mine of information about the works and its products and should be in the library of every S&DJR enthusiast.

An inside view of the erecting shop can be seen at http://www.ipernity.com/doc/philsutters/26350003/in/album/512561 . Please note the amendment to the date I showed originally as circa 1903, by my own calculations. Colin Maggs shows it as pre-1895. 

 

Edited July 28, 2023 by phil_sutters

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, phil_sutters said:

Colin Maggs in his 'Highbridge in its heyday' lists the various trades in the works.

 

I have that excellent book - I should have checked. But having the capability to make the irom parts themselves doesn't necessarily mean that they didn't buy in as well. But the hybrid van-open 6-wheeler was certainly well within the works' capability.

[phil_sutters]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I have that excellent book - I should have checked. But having the capability to make the irom parts themselves doesn't necessarily mean that they didn't buy in as well. But the hybrid van-open 6-wheeler was certainly well within the works' capability.

I didn't mean to imply by highlighting 'Highbridge forged its own metal components' that it did or didn't do that exclusively. However if you are a small, cash-strapped company and have the ability to do things yourself, I would have thought that you would prefer to use your own facilities and skilled workforce. There was of course access to raw materials from its cross-channel trade with the South Wales iron and steel industry. But given the sharing of designs with its adoptive parents, especially the Midland, it could have been cost-effective to have bought items in common use from them.

Edited July 27, 2023 by phil_sutters

[Compound2632]

8 hours ago, phil_sutters said:

However if you are a small, cash-strapped company 

 

Ah, but that's the thing isn't it? It wasn't, though it had once been. When necessary, it could call on the resources of those genteel folk at Waterloo or the bottomless pockets of Derby, benefitting from their efficiencies of scale. 

[phil_sutters]

On 26/07/2023 at 23:51, phil_sutters said:

Many thanks for locating this photo and identifying where I must have seen the model. I think that it must have been a back number my Dad acquired, as I would have only been six at that date. The question is now whether I add details to my original model or do I start from scratch. My inclination is the latter, as I have not 'improved' my old 1960s models since my railway modelling renaissance. Although I am not quite sure how it would have got onto Highbridge Wharf, one could surmise that, having had attention in the Wagon Works, it was brought there to be marshalled in an outgoing goods train. The wharf and the goods shed just the other side of the A38, as it now is, were the S&D's goods yard at Highbridge.

I have now done the same! It is definitely there, in a report on the 1952 MRC Exhibition. The 7mm scale model had been made and exhibited by Mr. G. Della-Gana. It is shown with small LMS lettering in the lower left corner of the van section. The number is too indistinct to read. It is a black and white photo so the colour is not clearly apparent. It could just be the S&DJR or LMS pale grey. Would departmental stock have been a different colour?

There is an article on the Buckingham Branch and R.E.Tustin's drawings of LSWR short and long horse boxes.

Edited July 28, 2023 by phil_sutters

[andreas]

9 hours ago, phil_sutters said:

It is shown with small LMS lettering in the lower left corner of the van section. The number is too indistinct to read. It is a black and white photo so the colour is not clearly apparent. It could just be the S&DJR or LMS pale grey. Would departmental stock have been a different colour?

The 1948 photo in SDRT Bulletin 258 does indeed show small LMS lettering in the lower left corner of the van. It also shows darker spots where the original larger LMS lettering must have been (first, third, and fifth panel section from the left). The colour is difficult to tell from the photos and the articles don't mention anything either, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was S&DJR grey with the obligatory layers of grime on top.

 

By the way, I've just come across an 1946 aerial photo of the S&D van/wagon and the MR clerestory in their natural habitat (source: https://britainfromabove.org.uk/en/image/EAW002937 ). Interestingly, an earlier riding van is paired with the other vehicles. This could well be the same six-wheeled brake that appears in photos from the early 1930s.

 

What livery would LMS departmental coaches have carried at this point? Apologies, I haven't got any of the relevant books handy at the moment.