replacement wheelsets for Hornby/lima/Bachmann coaches

[RobinofLoxley]

Im just checking but is it correct that the standard replacement metal wheels from the main suppliers e.g. R8218 have an insulation feature and are therefore dcc-compatible?

 

I believe that there are also metal inserts for the bogies so that these metal wheels dont grind there way through the plastic housings? I came across some but didnt store the info and now I cant find them again.

 

Any suppliers preferred or to avoid?

 

 

[The Johnster]

RTR metal wheels are insulated from the axles, and have pinpoint metal axles but are designed to run in RTR nylon plastic bogies which have cone shaped recesses on the inside of the sides to accept them.  These will run well and spin freely for very many years of even high mileage/speed/load use without wear becoming a problem.  Of course, all metal wheelsets for 2-rail use must be insulated on at least one side or they’d short out.  
 

The use of metal wheelsets in kits, however, is a different matter, and both plastic and whitemetal bogies have simple round axle holes on the inside surface.  Obviously a pinpoint axle end will not run properly in these, and the kits are often supplied with brass bearing cups which press-fit into the holes (though a spot of superglue will ensure that they stay there!).  These bearing cups have cone shaped insides for the pinpoint axle to run in.  
 

They are available from many sources; I will mention Roxey Mouldings, Slater’s Plasticard, and Peco as examples.  I have no preference for any particular make; a brass bearing cup is pretty much what it says on the label whoever makes it!

 

Metal wheelsets run much more freely than plastic, and do not spread crud around your layout to anything like the same extent; they are A Very Good Thing Indeed.  TTBOMK, all current RTR and most kit producers use them, but you may have older stock that has plastic wheelsets.  It is IMHO very much worth replacing these with metal ones; for RTR stock it’s a straight swap, force the old set out and bin it to prevent being tempted to use it and force fit the new set in; the plastic bogie will bend out to accommodate it.  The freer running will enable your locos to pull longer trains and start more smoothly.  You won’t need to worry about brass axle bearing cups on RTR stock. 
 

 

Edited August 11, 2022 by The Johnster

[Il Grifone]

There are are differences between the makes of bearing cups. The EMGS specification defines the angle and depth of the cone. They are designed to fit inside axle guards/frames 24mm apart and the cone should be 1 mm deeper to accept axles 26mm long over pin-points. The original Hornby axles met this spec. but I understand they now have a shorter axle for some unknown reasonl.

Romford bearings have a different specification (details on website) and need a bit of padding.

 

RTR stock is desined to accept pin point axles these days and (should) be made from a suitable material to resist wear. In the event, it is simple enough to drill a 2mm hole (twiddle a bit between the fingers or better a pin vice). It may be necessary to rebate a clearance for the flange of the bearing - 1/8" drill - the flange should be 3mm, but a little clearance does not hurt (especially if you need to  get the d**n thing out again. (They have a high 'fall on the floor and lose myself' tendency!)

[RobinofLoxley]

8 hours ago, The Johnster said:

RTR metal wheels are insulated from the axles, and have pinpoint metal axles but are designed to run in RTR nylon plastic bogies which have cone shaped recesses on the inside of the sides to accept them.  These will run well and spin freely for very many years of even high mileage/speed/load use without wear becoming a problem.  Of course, all metal wheelsets for 2-rail use must be insulated on at least one side or they’d short out.  
 

The use of metal wheelsets in kits, however, is a different matter, and both plastic and whitemetal bogies have simple round axle holes on the inside surface.  Obviously a pinpoint axle end will not run properly in these, and the kits are often supplied with brass bearing cups which press-fit into the holes (though a spot of superglue will ensure that they stay there!).  These bearing cups have cone shaped insides for the pinpoint axle to run in.  
 

They are available from many sources; I will mention Roxey Mouldings, Slater’s Plasticard, and Peco as examples.  I have no preference for any particular make; a brass bearing cup is pretty much what it says on the label whoever makes it!

 

Metal wheelsets run much more freely than plastic, and do not spread crud around your layout to anything like the same extent; they are A Very Good Thing Indeed.  TTBOMK, all current RTR and most kit producers use them, but you may have older stock that has plastic wheelsets.  It is IMHO very much worth replacing these with metal ones; for RTR stock it’s a straight swap, force the old set out and bin it to prevent being tempted to use it and force fit the new set in; the plastic bogie will bend out to accommodate it.  The freer running will enable your locos to pull longer trains and start more smoothly.  You won’t need to worry about brass axle bearing cups on RTR stock. 
 

 

you're right - I have quite a lot of heritage type running stock, a lot of which has never been out of the box. Having gradients etc I want to make sure everything runs as well as possible.

[The Johnster]

In which case I would seriously recommend swapping out any plastic wheelsets for all-metal, 14mm dia. for passenger and parcels stock and 12mm for freight.  Sadly, if you have a lot of older stock, this can work out to be an expensive undertaking, but nobody takes up model railways because they’re cheap!  I find current Hornby and Bachmann wheelsets to be of good quality and have no preference.  The improvement in running quality and loco haulage is worth the cost IMHO. 

[John Tomlinson]

3 hours ago, RobinofLoxley said:

you're right - I have quite a lot of heritage type running stock, a lot of which has never been out of the box. Having gradients etc I want to make sure everything runs as well as possible.

 

I think you'll find  that any Lima stock you have has axles that are shorter than Hornby or Bachmann (but do check). This means you need a shorter axle replacement. Look at Peters Spares who make these with metal wheels as a replacement for the Lima originals.

 

John.

[Il Grifone]

Lima axles are generally 25.5mm 24.5mm* or thereabouts, However the axle axle diameter is 2mm and it is possible to swap the wheels The uninsulated wheel is rather tight to the axle and may require the application of heat to shift it (or take a hacksaw to it!

*Lima wheels are actually 1 metre in H0 scale (11.5mm) (as would be expected for an Italian product). (We'll gloss over Rivarossi using 1/80! - their wheels are 12.5mm - 1 metre in 1/80).

Edited August 13, 2022 by Il Grifone

[Il Grifone]

Lima axles are actually 24.5mm Sorry

[RobinofLoxley]

I couldn't identify the Lima wheels on peters spares but that doesn't mean they're not there. None of the spare wheels have a defined axle length so it might need a call.

 

[john new]

Very useful tips above on axle length and wheel diameters.

 

What are the best for replacing the sets that were two halves to glue together in old Airfix kits? I have several in the kits box both made and unmade.

[Halvarras]

Early Tri-ang/Hornby pinpoint axle ends were not well machined and, in combination with bogies/underframes made from a plastic not dissimilar to that used for the rest of the model, prolonged running led to 'drilling' of the pinpoint bearing holes, making the vehicle look like its leaf springs had bust. Trix bogies/underframes made from graphite-filled nylon had no such issues and would quickly show a layout wasn't level! These days it appears that manufacturers are using a harder plastic for better wear resistance and of course the pinpoint axle ends are near-perfect, so no 'drilling', even when inserted into older stock.

[Philou]

2 hours ago, john new said:

What are the best for replacing the sets that were two halves to glue together in old Airfix kits? I have several in the kits box both made and unmade.

When I were a lad and dinosaurs ruled the earth in short trousers - or so the grandchildren tell me - top-hat bearings were unheard of and we had to make do with brass cup bearings from Peco. Jackson metal wheels on pinpoint axles were fortunately already on the market and this combination I used on all my Airfix wagons at the time. I had so many wheels and cup bearings in stock, I was able to complete the unmade kits bought in the 1980s during the great lock-down of 2020.

 

As @The Johnster mentioned (whether you use cup or top-hat bearings) you do need to drill out the axle boxes with a drill of just the right diameter (too large and you will have a sloppy fit) and just to the required depth and no further otherwise you may drill through the axle-box as well (don't ask how I know ;) ).

 

When I used the cup bearings, I left a half mill or so of the bearing showing, as I found out (again don't ask), that the axles were a too-floppy fit. I think as the Airfix wagons were made to scale they could take a P4 axle too.

 

Here are some I made earlier, well, in 2020:

 

The basic set-up - 2mm (I think) twist drill with masking tape around the shank to make a more comfortable grip, 4 cup bearings (or other bearing of your choice) and the underframe/axle boxes:

 

 

A quick twiddle of the drill in each hole (checking for depth as required):

 

 

Cup washers pressed into place and held in with a drop of solvent. As you can see, I did leave them protrude a little for the reason explained above. Using modern axles and top-hat bearings, you may not need to. The running quality in top-hats is very good as per the Parkside kits:

 

 

And voila, one complete wagon (couplings and buffers excepted):

 

 

IF you've got some of the Airfix mineral wagons, the diagram they used were frequently braked on one side only (handles on both sides though). Who found out AFTER he'd built thirty of them (in the 1970s/80s)? Spent a nice afternoon snipping one side off again during lock-down. Oh, and the hinges of the doors are oversized.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

[John Tomlinson]

19 hours ago, RobinofLoxley said:

I couldn't identify the Lima wheels on peters spares but that doesn't mean they're not there. None of the spare wheels have a defined axle length so it might need a call.

 

 

These are the wagon ones  https://www.petersspares.com/peters-spares-ps115-lima-replacement-115mm-3-hole-wheel.ir

 

On their website, hover over "spares" in the long list of manufacturers at the top of the home page, and you'll get a sub menu with Peters Spares in that. They seem to keep expanding their range, lots of useful goodies in there.

 

John.

[RobinofLoxley]

2 minutes ago, John Tomlinson said:

 

These are the wagon ones  https://www.petersspares.com/peters-spares-ps115-lima-replacement-115mm-3-hole-wheel.ir

 

On their website, hover over "spares" in the long list of manufacturers at the top of the home page, and you'll get a sub menu with Peters Spares in that. They seem to keep expanding their range, lots of useful goodies in there.

 

John.

Thanks John that's what I did and found those....

 

[Il Grifone]

I used top hat bearings on all my Airfix mineral wagons*. I drill out the slot (at the top) 2mm (not too deep for the reason above!) and then cut a rebate 1/8" diameter so that the bearing fits flush, having filed the bump off the back  and taper the edges of the W-irons to hide their excessive thickness.. 26mm pin point axles then fit and run freely (some fiddling may be required).

The Airfix kit has one or two errors.  The brake gear should be single sided Morton and the side with the brake should have a clutch in the lever mechanism. Also there should be a rod linking the the two levers together. The V should be a a proper vee and not have a reinforcing strip one side, I have cut out the ratchet on some but am undecided whether the hassle is worth it. Photos of the real thing will make it clear what I am waffling about. I'd post a photo of one of mine, but they are all in the UK at the moment and I am not.

The Peco bearings have a curved bearing surface which is not ideal for free running, I use them for coaches which I feel should not run too freely to avoid jitter between vehicles.

 

* Other makes are available and allow a mixed train - there were umpteen diagrams of these things (and variations within diagrams).

[RobinofLoxley]

Just checked an old Lima coach and while 24.5mm looks correct for the axle length I was surprised by the amount of float, at least 1mm side to side and drop (more like 2mm).  The more 'heritage' coach stock yet, which is all Bachmann, doesnt have that movement, which makes me wonder how close one of their replacement sets would be to fitting straight into the lima.

[DCB]

You need to set your parameters, as in are you modelling a coach or a train when selecting replacement wheels,   If its a coach well anything goes, If its part of a train you need consistent buffer heights to within 0.5mm as in .25mm up or .25mm down from datum.  Bachmann, Mainline, are pretty good at around 14mm for a 14mm buffer centre line but Hornby need 12mm as do Lima,  Hornby buffers and roofs are generally 1mm too high with their 13mm standard plastic wheels while Lima is about right with standard 12mm wheels.   Hornby generally benefit from a slight reduction of the floor or bogie tower even with 12mm wheels, You are into grinding holes in the floor to make 14mm wheels and a Hornby chassis work coupled to Bachmann stock.   Some modern stock runs too freely, my carriage sidings are about 1 in 100 and the damn carriages roll out of them.  I find a Bachmann LMS 57ft brake makes an excellent replacement for a spirit level.

 

[Halvarras]

The Peco bearing cups were very useful when Jackson wheels had axles with domed ends*. They were still useful when the domes changed to very half-hearted 'pinpoints'. Eventually these became proper pinpoints and viable as direct replacements for Tri-ang wheelsets.

 

*These were good for replacing Hornby Dublo wheels with the pressed metal bearings, usually just requiring a slight filing of the dome ends to fit between the axle guards.

Edited August 17, 2022 by Halvarras

[RobinofLoxley]

17 hours ago, DCB said:

You need to set your parameters, as in are you modelling a coach or a train when selecting replacement wheels,   If its a coach well anything goes, If its part of a train you need consistent buffer heights to within 0.5mm as in .25mm up or .25mm down from datum.  Bachmann, Mainline, are pretty good at around 14mm for a 14mm buffer centre line but Hornby need 12mm as do Lima,  Hornby buffers and roofs are generally 1mm too high with their 13mm standard plastic wheels while Lima is about right with standard 12mm wheels.   Hornby generally benefit from a slight reduction of the floor or bogie tower even with 12mm wheels, You are into grinding holes in the floor to make 14mm wheels and a Hornby chassis work coupled to Bachmann stock.   Some modern stock runs too freely, my carriage sidings are about 1 in 100 and the damn carriages roll out of them.  I find a Bachmann LMS 57ft brake makes an excellent replacement for a spirit level.

 

Most of my stock will run in rakes. Studying photos of the Era c1960 it seems that almost any combination of stock could happen with odd mixtures common on anything except long distance express services. So I can suit myself, if stock doesn't look ok in some formations I just won't use them. 

 

I will prioritize free running to limit power use and help on gradients. 

 

As well as wheel changes I'm going to change couplings too. Everything will need to be at the right height.....

 

Advice noted - the 2mm movement on the Lima example I gave is way outside your given limits. So far I'm wondering if the Hornby wheels might fit...

 

[Philou]

On 17/08/2022 at 01:29, DCB said:

Some modern stock runs too freely, my carriage sidings are about 1 in 100 and the damn carriages roll out of them.

 Catch/trap points needed? ;)

[DCB]

On 17/08/2022 at 17:50, RobinofLoxley said:

Most of my stock will run in rakes. Studying photos of the Era c1960 it seems that almost any combination of stock could happen with odd mixtures common on anything except long distance express services. So I can suit myself, if stock doesn't look ok in some formations I just won't use them. 

 

I will prioritize free running to limit power use and help on gradients. 

 

As well as wheel changes I'm going to change couplings too. Everything will need to be at the right height.....

 

Advice noted - the 2mm movement on the Lima example I gave is way outside your given limits. So far I'm wondering if the Hornby wheels might fit...

 

 

I too tend to keep stock in rakes, adapting some vehicles to look right with other makes, A Hornby Buffet lowered to match Airfix Staniers and a Lima Buffet runs Hornby Bogies to mention but two, but long term I would like all my coaches to have consistent buffer heights and those with similar prototype cant rail heights to have similar cant rail heights so I can mix and match, like I do with wagons which just about all match my jig for maximum interchangbility.  My Lima axles fall out of my Hornby underframes and have barely perceptible side play in Lima side frames, there must be 20 or 30 Lima vehicles around all with original wheels except where I have also changed the bogies 

[John Tomlinson]

20 hours ago, DCB said:

 

I too tend to keep stock in rakes, adapting some vehicles to look right with other makes, A Hornby Buffet lowered to match Airfix Staniers and a Lima Buffet runs Hornby Bogies to mention but two, but long term I would like all my coaches to have consistent buffer heights and those with similar prototype cant rail heights to have similar cant rail heights so I can mix and match, like I do with wagons which just about all match my jig for maximum interchangbility.  My Lima axles fall out of my Hornby underframes and have barely perceptible side play in Lima side frames, there must be 20 or 30 Lima vehicles around all with original wheels except where I have also changed the bogies 

 

The problem with many Lima wheels is flange depth. Depending on your track it can be too deep so that the flanges run on the rail chairs, rather than the wheel tread on the rails. All Lima wheels are not the same however, at some point they appear to have reduced flange depth.

 

John.

[jonhall]

If you just want to improve the quality of a plastic pinpoint seat in RTR then micromark do a little tool that can improve the shape of the divot - of course it can't put material back if its wear that's the problem.

https://www.micromark.com/HO-Truck-Tuner_2

 

There are a couple of tools that aid drilling a 2mm hole for a 'top hat' bearing, I'm not sure if either are still available,  I thought there was a third supplier out there, but I can't recall who?

 

or

http://www.alangibsonworkshop.com/RTR Drill.pdf

 

Jon

 

[Sir TophamHatt]

On 11/08/2022 at 11:18, The Johnster said:

In which case I would seriously recommend swapping out any plastic wheelsets for all-metal, 14mm dia. for passenger and parcels stock and 12mm for freight.  Sadly, if you have a lot of older stock, this can work out to be an expensive undertaking, but nobody takes up model railways because they’re cheap!  I find current Hornby and Bachmann wheelsets to be of good quality and have no preference.  The improvement in running quality and loco haulage is worth the cost IMHO. 

 

I would but I have at least 3 older Lima locos that have traction tyres.

Absolutely no clue where to start as some have gearing attached to the wheels so not as easy to swap.

[Moxy]

24 minutes ago, Sir TophamHatt said:

 

I would but I have at least 3 older Lima locos that have traction tyres.

Absolutely no clue where to start as some have gearing attached to the wheels so not as easy to swap.

 

Peters Spares do replacement Lima wheels with gears attached:

 

https://www.petersspares.com/peters-spares-ps77-replacement-lima-large-wheel-gear-on-axle-pk2.ir

 

They also do PS76, which is the small wheel version.