Outside and a Double- framed locomotives

[Bandicoot]

I know that, years ago, Bachmann produced a GWR loco with, I believe, outside frames. (City of Truro?)

i am slightly surprised that there has never (as far as I know) been any other R-T-R locos like this.

i know of the Midland Railway Kirtley, which looks a beautiful engine and which spanned a long period in service.

i think I also remember certain LSWR locomotives with this configuration.

Does anyone agree that this/these would be worthy of the manufacturers’  interest, instead of endless repeats of Manors, Castles etc., etc?

Maybe I am a lone voice, crying in the wilderness.

[Bandicoot]

I checked the Midland 700 class.

Built in the 19c, they were still around until 1951.

I need to find my LSWR books to see if I’m right about the others.

Apparently, there were numerous GWR locos, but they are very well catered for, already.

[Gordon A]

Bachman also produce the Dukedog outside frame 4-4-0.

[Bandicoot]

Thanks,  Gordon.

I’d forgotten the Dukedog, but the same complaint (whinge) applies!

[Nick Holliday]

17 hours ago, Bandicoot said:

I checked the Midland 700 class.

Built in the 19c, they were still around until 1951.

I need to find my LSWR books to see if I’m right about the others.

Apparently, there were numerous GWR locos, but they are very well catered for, already.

The LSWR Beyer-Peacocks only just managed to make it to grouping, 6 of them got to 1923/4.

The Midland also had other double-framed locos apart from the 0-6-0's which made it to grouping, 0-4-4 well tanks and 2-4-0 tender locos, one of the latter making it through to around 1945.

All three southern lines and the GNR, GCR, NER and NSR had reasonable quantities of double-framed locos, but on most lines they only survived to around 1910, if they were lucky. The GWR were the company that embraced the concept and ran with it for much longer, the singles were all double-framed, and there were several classes of 0-6-0 tender and tank locos, some of the tanks lasting into the forties. But you shouldn't forget the Aberdare class of 2-6-0, which were being built up until 1907 and which lasted into nationalisation - a prime, and different design for the manufacturers to consider. However, I would try to forget their progenitors, the "Crocodile" and Kruger 4-6-0's!

Edited August 26, 2022 by Nick Holliday
Correcting last construction date

[Bandicoot]

That’s very interesting, Nick.

Many thanks for that.

[Compound2632]

The majority of the RTR 009 locomotives produced in recent years are double-framed, the Bachmann Baldwin 4-6-0T being the most notable exception.

[Nearholmer]

Outside framed possibly, but double-framed is rare (absent?) in the narrower gauges for the same reason that outside frame steam locos continued to be built to the very end of commercial steam production: lack of space.

 

I’m not well up with recent 009 r-t-r, but of the models I can think of: the L&B 2-6-2T locos were outside framed; Festiniog Prince and Fairlie are inside framed; Baldwin 4-6-0T and Alco 2-6-2T inside; VoR 2-6-2T outside; Talyllyn and Dolgoch inside.

 

 

Edited August 29, 2022 by Nearholmer

[Compound2632]

... and indeed as the OP's title implicitly notes, the great majority of standard gauge outside-framed engines were in fact double-framed in whole or part - although generally only the driven axle had four bearings.

[Dana Ashdown]

On 25/08/2022 at 12:49, Bandicoot said:

Apparently, there were numerous GWR locos, but they are very well catered for, already.

Only if you're modelling the 1930s and beyond. Even the Dukedog is a later creation from a Duke and a Bulldog.

 

I think we need genuinely Victorian engines! And some early Edwardian ones.

Edited September 7, 2022 by Dana Ashdown
correcting name, wording...

[Bandicoot]

Many thanks to all. My apologies for the delay in replying.

 

I am afraid that I have inadvertently caused confusion (because I don’t know the correct terminology).

Although I am interested in, and modelling 009, my plea was for standard gauge locomotives, rather than narrow gauge.

 

Dana. You’ve hit the nail on the head. We need more Victorian and Edwardian locomotives. This is specifically why I posted in this forum.

 

I have nothing against the GWR, as such. It’s just that I’m not in the slightest bit interested in them, although they DID let some of their locos go to France with the ROD.

 

What I don’t understand is why the major manufacturers keep churning out Manors, Cities, etc. There are plenty of modellers out there who are not slavishly attached to ‘God’s Wonderful Railway’!

[DCB]

17 minutes ago, Bandicoot said:

What I don’t understand is why the major manufacturers keep churning out Manors, Cities, etc. There are plenty of modellers out there who are not slavishly attached to ‘God’s Wonderful Railway’!

 

One reason Manors, Cities, 14XX are so popular is they are much prettier in their BR lined green  than the drab black offerings from LNER. LMS etc.  They also operated a bit like Thomas the tank engine with little tank locos scuttling about operating the branch lines at speeds which would make Jinties and the like suffer a meltdown, normally a coupled axle box. Where the GWR is poorly served is pre mid 1930s locomotives, especially branch line locos, there are the Dean Goods, and 45XX and that's about it, the 2721 and 57XX were heavy panniers/ Saddle tanks  I believe that 5700 in 1927 (?) was the first 0-6-0 tank to be built as a pannier, there were swarms of baby saddles/ panniers 850/ 2021 and 2-4-0 Metro tanks on many branches pre war.

[DCB]

38 minutes ago, Bandicoot said:

 

Dana. You’ve hit the nail on the head. We need more Victorian and Edwardian locomotives. This is specifically why I posted in this forum.

 

You are getting in to a terribly niche market there, the most obvious candidates have been produced, the Terrier tanks and Jones Goods.   They may well be the most numerous classes on their respective railways,  There were 15 Jones goods locos....  and 103 starred in those Magnificent Men in their Flying Machines, and like the terriers looks very pretty in yellow livery, a great "Improvement" on the other shades of green.   The real joy of modelling pre group and indeed fictious railways is you have to scratch build, Kit Bash or RTR Bash to create your models and Joe public can't just click on buy it now and have one exactly the same delivered by a dodgy courier in a beat up Nissan Microbe three weeks later.

Then again Victorian?  Ballast over the sleepers, 50lb ff 40 ft rails, footboards on the coaches, 7ft 6" WB wagons, Edwardian  GWR coaches were in BR Maroon 1902 -23, Deans were round top boiler, the Victoriaan and Edwardian locos we OAPs knew in the 1960  were very different to how they were in the early 1900s  (except 103)     Rant over back to RTR Bashing a GWR 101 and a Jinty into a Metro.   Bet no one else is doing that and I might get it done before the RTR version hits the shelves.

[Compound2632]

14 minutes ago, DCB said:

the Terrier tanks and Jones Goods.   They may well be the most numerous classes on their respective railways

 

Fact checking:

 

On the Brighton, there were 50 Class A "Terriers" built as against 125 Class D 0-4-2Ts and 78 Class E 0-6-0Ts (the latter of course being a forthcoming Rapido model). Terriers account for just 13% of LB&SC locomotives built under Stroudley's superintendency. Billinton's C2 0-6-0s and E4 0-6-2Ts also outnumbered the Terriers, at 55 and 75 built, respectively.

 

On the Highland, small classes were rather the rule but even so the were 17 of the "Duke" and 18 of the "Loch" classes of 4-4-0 built in Jones' time and 20 "Small Ben" 4-4-0s and 19 "Castle" 4-6-0s built under Drummond. Overall there were 64 4-4-0s built under Jones' superintendency, 70% of locomotives built, the 15 "Big Goods" being only 16%; with the 26 built under Drummond, the 4-4-0 really was the most characteristic Highland type.

[Dana Ashdown]

9 hours ago, Bandicoot said:

I have nothing against the GWR, as such. It’s just that I’m not in the slightest bit interested in them

Shocking, but I forgive you.

[Dana Ashdown]

8 hours ago, DCB said:

Rant over back to RTR Bashing a GWR 101 and a Jinty into a Metro.   Bet no one else is doing that and I might get it done before the RTR version hits the shelves.

That sounds interesting.

[Bandicoot]

Thanks all.

I feel that the discussion has rather got away from the original subject, so I think it is best that I withdraw from the debate, but I am grateful for everybody’s input.