EM2 / Class 77 1500V DC locomotive class

[Pandora]

A question as to the history  of the EM2.

The EM1 is a project of Sir Nigel Gresley CME of the LNER.

The EM2.

Under which  CME was  the EM2 proposed?

Was it Gresley, Edward Thompson, or Arthur Peppercorn?

Was the EM2 a British Railways  project in entirety ? Or  Is the EM2  a design passed from the LNER to British Railways?

Under the LNER Woodhead scheme, how did Gresley envisage the working of express passenger trains, Steam or Electric?

 

Edited September 1, 2022 by Pandora

[keefer]

According to https://www.lner.info/locos/Electric/em2.php it would seem the EM2 was a design for British Railways (by whom, i don't know). It used the EM1 as a basis for the bodies but the bogies were similar to the LMS 'Twins'.

They definitely came after Nationalisation as the order was cut from 27 (or 29) locos to just seven in 1950, both as a result of required cuts in expenditure, and also as it has been decided not to extend the 1500V DC system - there was no need for so many express locos on the MSW network.

Edited September 1, 2022 by keefer

[Derek 19B]

The EM2 were designed by Mr E S Cox and Mr C M Cock in  May 1948 .Also to use the latest design of bogie as used on the LMR 10,000 locomotive.

Taken from Woodhead the Electric Railway by E M Johnson.

 

derek

 

[Pandora]

26 minutes ago, Derek 19B said:

The EM2 were designed by Mr E S Cox and Mr C M Cock in  May 1948 .Also to use the latest design of bogie as used on the LMR 10,000 locomotive.

Taken from Woodhead the Electric Railway by E M Johnson.

 

derek

 

The design of Tommy was revised for the fleet of the EM1 locos, the change to the  driving cabs is the first one we see,  were the revisions by Cox and Cock, and do we have a date for the work?

Edited September 1, 2022 by Pandora

[Pandora]

2 hours ago, keefer said:

According to https://www.lner.info/locos/Electric/em2.php it would seem the EM2 was a design for British Railways (by whom, i don't know). It used the EM1 as a basis for the bodies but the bogies were similar to the LMS 'Twins'.

They definitely came after Nationalisation as the order was cut from 27 (or 29) locos to just seven in 1950, both as a result of required cuts in expenditure, and also as it has been decided not to extend the 1500V DC system - there was no need for so many express locos on the MSW network.

I followed the link in your post and read of a requirement of nine passenger locos.

" The original 1936 plan for the electrification of the Manchester, Sheffield and Wath line included nine express passenger locomotives, in addition to the mixed traffic EM1 Bo-Bo locomotives. The EM1s were designed first, and the only pre-war express passenger design known to have existed was submitted by the Swiss Locomotive and Machine Works, Winterthur in 1939. This was a 4-6-4 with a universal drive, 13ft wheelbase, and a total length of 55ft. Development work was interrupted by World War 2, and the final EM2 design that was built in 1953 bore no resemblance to the Swiss proposal. In fact, there was very little LNER influence in the final EM2 design.".

 

Do we have any drawings of the Swiss 4-6-4 passenger locomotive?

 

Edited September 1, 2022 by Pandora

[keefer]

Maybe not too different from Raven's No 13?

https://www.lner.info/locos/Electric/ee1.php

[Flying Pig]

The SLM Ae 8/14 11852 of 1939 and the class Ae 4/6 of 1941 show the sort of styling they were using around that time, but some adjustment would have been needed to fit the LNER's loading gauge, possibly deletion of the lower side skirts.

[Pandora]

SLM and MetroVick  built  a batch of electric locos Winterthur-Universal-Drive locos for  India,  1928 to 1930, (from Wikipaedia)

 

They may be the type of locomotive Gresley had in mind

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winterthur_Universal_Drive#/media/File:Electric_loco_4006.jpg

Edited September 1, 2022 by Pandora

[Pandora]

40 minutes ago, keefer said:

Maybe not too different from Raven's No 13?

https://www.lner.info/locos/Electric/ee1.php

Not too different:

I think the Raven loco was Quill drive, a lot of developments in transmission going on.

Here is a SLM Universal Drive loco from SLM Winterthur constructed in 1930

 

Indian  electric locomotive 4006 of 1930, 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winterthur_Universal_Drive#/media/File:Electric_loco_4006.jpg

Edited September 1, 2022 by Pandora

[Pandora]

A weblink to more vintage 1500 V DC electrics:

https://www.irfca.org/gallery/Locos/Electric/wcpx/

 

In my humble opinion there is a some "look and feel" of Woodhead  traction.

 

https://www.irfca.org/gallery/Locos/Electric/wcpx/umax49b.jpg.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=1

 

Edited September 1, 2022 by Pandora

[dave75]

Gresley had visited South Africa railways, the Class 1E with metropolitan vickers equipment looks like the starting point for the EM1 design. Look at the side grills and Bo+Bo bogies. 

[woodenhead]

48 minutes ago, dave75 said:

Gresley had visited South Africa railways, the Class 1E with metropolitan vickers equipment looks like the starting point for the EM1 design. Look at the side grills and Bo+Bo bogies. 

Like this http://grela.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1861926

[Derek 19B]

You can see where the design for the EM1 can from ,probably with some help from Metropolitan Vickers. The redesign of the cab for the EM1 I can only find one reference from Edgar Clayton who in 1947 was in Holland with Tommy (6000) while on loan.

 

The NS driver recommended that the cab could be made more comfortable and roomy for the driver with more leg room, and the controls more easily to hand.

 

Report sent 8/10/47 by Mr Clayton to head office (Kings Cross) . Someone must have taken note and redesign the cab.

 

derek

 

His name is Edgar Clayton  not Clayton ,thanks Pandora.

Edited September 3, 2022 by Derek 19B
Wrong name

[Pandora]

19 hours ago, Derek 19B said:

You can see where the design for the EM1 can from ,probably with some help from Metropolitan Vickers. The redesign of the cab for the EM1 I can only find one reference from Edgar Clayton who in 1947 was in Holland with Tommy (6000) while on loan.

 

The NS driver recommended that the cab could be made more comfortable and roomy for the driver with more leg room, and the controls more easily to hand.

 

Report sent 8/10/47 by Mr Clayton to head office (Kings Cross) . Someone must have taken note and redesign the cab.

 

derek

I could not find an Edgar Clayton, there is a Wikipedia entry for Edgar Claxton,  an Electrification Engineer

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_Claxton

[Derek 19B]

Sorry yes it’s Edgar Clayton no idea why the fingers typed Clayton.

 

apologies again

 

derek  

[dave75]

Does anyone see a another lner electric stock resemblance in another piece of SAR railway equipment?? 

Edited September 4, 2022 by dave75
Spelling

[Mark Saunders]

35 minutes ago, dave75 said:

Does anyone see a another lner electric stock resemblance in another piece of SAR railway equipment?? 

Lots of the EMU’s that could be found in parts of them British Empire such as India and Australia had similar and I’m sure there Argentina likewise.

[Derek 19B]

In E M Johnson’s book Woodhead the electric railway there is a copy of the Rolling stock construction order for 27 mixed traffic locomotive’s , the 27 is crossed out and seven in its place . The order is signed by A.H.Peppercorn 14th July 1949. Numbers allocated 27000 to 27006. 

I believe the last 12 EM1 were named and classed as mixed traffic to cover for the short order of mixed traffic locos.

 

derek

[dave75]

4 hours ago, Derek 19B said:

I believe the last 12 EM1 were named and classed as mixed traffic to cover for the short order of mixed traffic locos.

Suitably upgraded with train heating boilers, timken axleboxs and improved bearing services. 

[Pandora]

4 hours ago, Derek 19B said:

In E M Johnson’s book Woodhead the electric railway there is a copy of the Rolling stock construction order for 27 mixed traffic locomotive’s , the 27 is crossed out and seven in its place . The order is signed by A.H.Peppercorn 14th July 1949. Numbers allocated 27000 to 27006. 

I believe the last 12 EM1 were named and classed as mixed traffic to cover for the short order of mixed traffic locos.

 

derek

The original order bears the signature of A H Peppercorn,  the reduction of the quantity to 7, is it signed by J F Harrison or Peppercorn?

[Derek 19B]

Looking at the signature it starts with A H and has two p’s in the middle. To quote from the book “ Students of hieroglyphics will observe that the document is signed by A.H.Peppercorn”.

 

derek