CJ Freezer Crutched Friars (Or a variation thereof!)

[franciswilliamwebb]

13 hours ago, 45655 said:

and Austin Friars

 

International men of mystery...

[Harlequin]

My suggested recipe:

• The two main lines gently curve into the scene in some way to suggest a slightly cramped urban site. Leave a bit of breathing space before the throat pointwork, if possible.
• Two main line platforms with no loco releases. These are used for both long distance and commuter traffic.
• A carriage siding somewhere nearby, possibly in the middle of the mainline platforms to make the station look a bit grander. This can be used for various purposes.
• A single local platform with a loco release loop alongside. This platform is used for parcels, newspapers (& milk?) off-peak and commuter traffic at peak times.
• Maybe a small goods platform against the outside of the spur of the release loop.
• A long goods siding (or two if they will fit) behind the platforms, not kicked-back. This is much more realistic. The siding may or may not pass through a large urban goods shed (think long brick wall at the back of the layout, with many arched windows) depending on how the scenics work. This gives a reason for goods vans to appear on scene where they can stand tastefully in the background at different times.
• Don't worry about goods shunting blocking the main lines - as others have said, this simply takes place when the passenger traffic is not so frequent.
• A small kickback spur off the goods sidings serving some very particular job/industry so that you only need to shunt it occasionally. (The release loop on the local side of the station allows this to be done more easily than in Crutched Friars but it will still be a pain - deliberately!)
• Pilot spur possibly between main and local platforms with connections to both sides. (Or kickback pilot spur near the entrance to the station?) (Or both!?)
• A suggestion of a huge gothic Victorian station building (In compressed partial relief form!) somewhere at the root end of the platforms.

😀

Edited September 14, 2022 by Harlequin

[D9020 Nimbus]

If you're interested in Minories-type layouts, you could have a look at this:

 

[Clive Mortimore]

I always get confused when people add a loco release to a Minories type layout. There wasn't one at Liverpool Street station (Met Rly) which the plan is based on. The train arrived in the bay platform with a Met electric on the front, there would be another one in the loco siding ready to back down and take the train out. The same happened the other end of Eldon Street where the GNR and MR had platforms at Moorgate station. Train in, loco in the loco siding backed down on train a zoomed off when it was empty (mornings) or full (evenings). The Jazz service at the big Liverpool Street station done the same thing, no wasting time running around the train, bung another loco on and go. Fenchurch Street is another example where train in, loco t'other end and go. Running around trains takes away that busy suburban feeling. To my mind with loco releases it becomes a big branch station or seaside terminus with a city skyline behind it.

 

Mike might be able to say what happened at the station named after that royal bear. I once asked at the buffet there if I could have a marmalade sandwich, after the look I got from the lady behind the counter I though it best not to ask for chocolate and cream.

 

 

[JoeFerrito]

43 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

My suggested recipe:

• The two main lines gently curve into the scene in some way to suggest a slightly cramped urban site. Leave a bit of breathing space before the throat pointwork, if possible.
• Two main line platforms with no loco releases. These are used for both long distance and commuter traffic.
• A carriage siding somewhere nearby, possibly in the middle of the mainline platforms to make the station look a bit grander. This can be used for various purposes.
• A single local platform with a loco release loop alongside. This platform is used for parcels, newspapers (& milk?) off-peak and commuter traffic at peak times.
• Maybe a small goods platform against the outside of the spur of the release loop.
• A long goods siding (or two if they will fit) behind the platforms, not kicked-back. This is much more realistic. The siding may or may not pass through a large urban goods shed (think long brick wall at the back of the layout, with many arched windows) depending on how the scenics work. This gives a reason for goods vans to appear on scene where they can stand tastefully in the background at different times.
• Don't worry about goods shunting blocking the main lines - as others have said, this simply takes place when the passenger traffic is not so frequent.
• A small kickback spur off the goods sidings serving some very particular job/industry so that you only need to shunt it occasionally. (The release loop on the local side of the station allows this to be done more easily than in Crutched Friars but it will still be a pain - deliberately!)
• Pilot spur possibly between main and local platforms with connections to both sides. (Or kickback pilot spur near the entrance to the station?) (Or both!?)
• A suggestion of a huge gothic Victorian station building (In compressed partial relief form!) somewhere at the root end of the platforms.

😀

 

Something along these lines, perhaps? Wondering if I could potentially fit the second goods siding in, but on the whole I like this better. I see what you mean about the curve doing a lot for the aesthetics – need to train my brain to think in something other than straight lines!

[DCB]

47 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

I always get confused when people add a loco release to a Minories type layout. There wasn't one at Liverpool Street station (Met Rly) which the plan is based on. The train arrived in the bay platform with a Met electric on the front, there would be another one in the loco siding ready to back down and take the train out. The same happened the other end of Eldon Street where the GNR and MR had platforms at Moorgate station. Train in, loco in the loco siding backed down on train a zoomed off when it was empty (mornings) or full (evenings).

The problem is replicating this movement in model form , I keep moaning about it.  The train arrived in the bay platform with a Met electric on the front, there would be another one in the loco siding ready to back down and take the train out.  AND THEN the incoming loco followed the outgoing train to the platform end from where it was released to the loco spur.  That is pretty much universal even ECS  and even for the West London Station of "Bear" fame.   That is a lot of complicated section switches in 00, and no body ever seems to bother with DCC.  two engines two different drivers, its what DCC was created for.

This engine left at the buffer stops was against the rule book.  Its that loco following the train which gives the real impression of urgency.   The LMS used the incoming engine to bank ECS out of Euston

[Nearholmer]

1 hour ago, Clive Mortimore said:

I always get confused when people add a loco release to a Minories type layout.

It becomes very useful for off-peak newspaper/parcel trains, and if the layout incorporates the goods facility. As someone pointed out above, London Bridge had one for newspaper/parcel trains, although the loco hauled passenger trains were worked on the ‘float engine’ basis (it wasn’t strictly a turnover engine, because the trains were ECS one way).

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, Clive Mortimore said:

I always get confused when people add a loco release to a Minories type layout. There wasn't one at Liverpool Street station (Met Rly) which the plan is based on. The train arrived in the bay platform with a Met electric on the front, there would be another one in the loco siding ready to back down and take the train out. The same happened the other end of Eldon Street where the GNR and MR had platforms at Moorgate station. Train in, loco in the loco siding backed down on train a zoomed off when it was empty (mornings) or full (evenings). The Jazz service at the big Liverpool Street station done the same thing, no wasting time running around the train, bung another loco on and go. Fenchurch Street is another example where train in, loco t'other end and go. Running around trains takes away that busy suburban feeling. To my mind with loco releases it becomes a big branch station or seaside terminus with a city skyline behind it.

 

Mike might be able to say what happened at the station named after that royal bear. I once asked at the buffet there if I could have a marmalade sandwich, after the look I got from the lady behind the counter I though it best not to ask for chocolate and cream.

 

 

Paddington was I think a bit of a mixr ture but basically the suburbn steam hauled trains used turnover engine working when there was a need to save time as it was quicker than running round.

 

Main line trains varied considerably from station to station and depended very much on what happened with the stock and whether or not there was sufficient platform capacity to holf d in the platform long enough for simething more than a quick turnround clean.

 

At Paddington - as elsewhere - things also depended on where the incoming engine was going in relation to where the stock was dgoing and those two places weren't necessarily the same of course.  Thus, for example, at Paddington and Kings Cross an incoming en gine might well go to a local servicing point (Ranelagh Bridge or 'Bottom Shed' respectively) while the stock might well be taken to carriage sidings a couple of miles away.

 

Following down - as it was known at paddington with an incoming engine or coach pilot following closely behind departing stock or passenger train might even extend where authorised to giving the train a gentle shove to help the train engine get the train underway.

 

And contrary to what was posted above there was absolutely nothing wrong with leaving an engine, or the occasional vehicle, or even a short train, at  the stop blocks apart from the fact that it pinched platform length and, far worse,  blocked in the engine.  After all why otherwise would the signalling at most termini cater for it and why would Instructions (such as those applying in 1939 at Plymouth Millbay and Penzance, or those applying at Paddington in 1960 - all of which I have just re-read) be published to set out the relevant method of working?

[5BarVT]

Another place which had a headshunt for a layover engine was Glasgow Central the short platforms 5-8 (some of!) known as the Cathcart Engine Siding.. The space is still there but it wasn’t needed after Cathcart Electrification.

Paul.

[Clive Mortimore]

1 hour ago, DCB said:

The problem is replicating this movement in model form , I keep moaning about it.  The train arrived in the bay platform with a Met electric on the front, there would be another one in the loco siding ready to back down and take the train out.  AND THEN the incoming loco followed the outgoing train to the platform end from where it was released to the loco spur.  That is pretty much universal even ECS  and even for the West London Station of "Bear" fame.   That is a lot of complicated section switches in 00, and no body ever seems to bother with DCC.  two engines two different drivers, its what DCC was created for.

This engine left at the buffer stops was against the rule book.  Its that loco following the train which gives the real impression of urgency.   The LMS used the incoming engine to bank ECS out of Euston

Waiting the few seconds for the train to go into the fiddle yard before moving the loco at the stops never spoiled my fun. I find it difficult to concentrate on stopping two moving trains.

 

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

It becomes very useful for off-peak newspaper/parcel trains, and if the layout incorporates the goods facility. As someone pointed out above, London Bridge had one for newspaper/parcel trains, although the loco hauled passenger trains were worked on the ‘float engine’ basis (it wasn’t strictly a turnover engine, because the trains were ECS one way).

At quiet moments a parcels train could be unloaded, the loco in the loco siding then pulls the stock forward and shunts into an empty platform for loading. Thus releasing the train loco that then makes its way to the loco siding ready for the "rush hour".

 

As I posted before the scenery wasn't completed before we moved and the layout dismantled.

 

All these images were taken on one evenings operating session.

A Brush Type 2 on a loco hauled suburban train with a BRCW 4 car unit.

 

A Cravens and Derby mixed train arrives

 

 

The Brush 2 departs, off to somewhere over the hills and faraway.

 

 

A Brush two reversing on to the loco siding.

 

 

A Derby and Met Cam train arriving.

 

DMUs waiting for the passengers to board so they can take them home.

 

The Met Cam and Derby train departing.

 

A busy fiddle yard.

I didn't seem to run a steam loco or photograph one that night.

 

I left off the goods shed as that seemed to countrified to me as most urban goods yards are not located at the terminal station. Keeping it simple I don't think I missed the added operational interest. It was my first layout where playing operating not modelling was more fun.

 

Sorry Joe for hijacking your thread.

Edited September 14, 2022 by Clive Mortimore

[JoeFerrito]

Not a problem at all, Clive – really enjoying seeing those pictures!

[Martino]

I too am in the early stages of planning a layout possibly based on a terminus and have considered the layout of Windsor and Eton Central.  This was essentially a branch line terminus but laid out like a major station to cater for Queen Victoria.   My idea is to probably use a simplified version as existed in either 1957 or after the branch was singled, so 1963 ish.   The early layout seem to take up way to much space.   The station had four platforms, engine release (both scissors or later simple crossovers) and two goods yards - a simple high level and a more elaborate lower level.   Locomotive servicing was carried out at Slough, so ‘off stage’.

 

I have track layout but they are copyright.  Everything is in a book “Windsor to Slough : A Royal Branch Line’ by C.R. Potts. Oak wood Press 1993.

[Titanius Anglesmith]

3 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

I always get confused when people add a loco release to a Minories type layout.
…….

Fenchurch Street is another example where train in, loco t'other end and go. Running around trains takes away that busy suburban feeling. 

I don’t disagree with anything you just said, but the original layout at Fenchurch St had a release road between two of the platform roads, and after remodelling in the 20s (or 30s?) it still had a release crossover between the two middle roads :)

[Flying Pig]

Just to remind folk as we drift from the particular to the General, there is a long running thread on the subject already:

 

 

[RobinofLoxley]

3 hours ago, JoeFerrito said:

 

 

I assume you've left out the relief slips and a platform accidentally. This is now an entirely different plan dedicated for an urban terminus with fast turnaround. So fast that whatever is on the other end will be the bottleneck and inhibit the fast interchange of services that the plan provides for. The sidings are now one loco shunt 1 carriage siding as I see it, plus the service point. So there won't be many movements on scene - released express locos will go off scene to turn, the suburban service locos will use the shunt siding to run round or clear for the next train, which is good. But that is all.

 

I wonder about the fact that the central relief road for express locos is continuous with the departures line, and the platform access is from the slip. It doesnt seem quite right but I expect it happened.

 

Anyway, I would like to go back to the original plan for a moment. I have drawn the original plan roughly at the top- I dont know the size of squares on the original. However its worth pointing out its quite a simple layout with just 5 turnouts and 2 double slips. Also that the first turnout on the arrivals line was usually trailing. The above plan has 13 turnouts and 3 slips.

 

The second plan just has the location of the goods sidings altered, as per @stationmaster suggestion. A short spur can hold a brake van. Its back to having the only slip being a pinch point but this is imho a deliberate feature; if goods and parcels traffic occupy what i think has been labelled P4, there is now more scope for shunting, taking place on-scene, with some passenger arrivals in the daytime (as per DCB). The loco release has been retained. Even so it has 10 turnouts and 1 slip.

 

The third is simply the second flipped over; doing this alters the perception a bit. Now the main trailing points are in the right place but the loco service siding is in the wrong place and should be moved to the departures side. The loco release need flipping back too I think.

 

Just some food for thought I hope..

 

 

[Clive Mortimore]

2 hours ago, Titanius Anglesmith said:

I don’t disagree with anything you just said, but the original layout at Fenchurch St had a release road between two of the platform roads, and after remodelling in the 20s (or 30s?) it still had a release crossover between the two middle roads :)

The big Liverpool Street had loco release crossovers, I remember watching a 47 in the early 80s on Platform 11 being right up against the buffers before its wheels cleared the point heal. It was then able to use the crossover and run round the train. Operationally it was quicker in the peak hours to use another loco to pull the train out than run round the train. Liverpool Street staff were capable of getting a loco on the country end and ready to take the train out faster in steam days than the turn round after electrification, it took the driver and guard longer to walk down the platform to swap ends of a six car unit.

 

Minories as a layout is to recreate a busy suburban terminus in a small space. Having the platform length for a loco release will restrict the length of train this operation can be performed with. Sheffield Exchange Mk1 was 16 ft long, on 4 ft boards. Board 1 was the station platforms which could just take a 4 coach BR Mk1 short non gangway train with a Brush type 2 or LNER B1either end without the country end loco being past the signals. If I had a loco release I would been restricted to 3 coach trains to use it.  Board 2 was the point work. Board 3 was 3ft of run in to the point work, how the trackwork on board 2 was set up a full 5 car DMU or 4 coach loco hauled train could just fit between the inner home signals and the tunnel mouth, I didn't want a train half in a tunnel stopped by a signal. The remaining 1 ft on board 3 was for loco storage.   Board 4 was the traverser each road could hold a five car DMU or 4 coaches and a loco.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

An initial thought...

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Second thoughts..

[RobinofLoxley]

10 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

The big Liverpool Street had loco release crossovers, I remember watching a 47 in the early 80s on Platform 11 being right up against the buffers before its wheels cleared the point heal. It was then able to use the crossover and run round the train. Operationally it was quicker in the peak hours to use another loco to pull the train out than run round the train. Liverpool Street staff were capable of getting a loco on the country end and ready to take the train out faster in steam days than the turn round after electrification, it took the driver and guard longer to walk down the platform to swap ends of a six car unit.

 

Minories as a layout is to recreate a busy suburban terminus in a small space. Having the platform length for a loco release will restrict the length of train this operation can be performed with. Sheffield Exchange Mk1 was 16 ft long, on 4 ft boards. Board 1 was the station platforms which could just take a 4 coach BR Mk1 short non gangway train with a Brush type 2 or LNER B1either end without the country end loco being past the signals. If I had a loco release I would been restricted to 3 coach trains to use it.  Board 2 was the point work. Board 3 was 3ft of run in to the point work, how the trackwork on board 2 was set up a full 5 car DMU or 4 coach loco hauled train could just fit between the inner home signals and the tunnel mouth, I didn't want a train half in a tunnel stopped by a signal. The remaining 1 ft on board 3 was for loco storage.   Board 4 was the traverser each road could hold a five car DMU or 4 coaches and a loco.

But whether or not you have a release, there is still a loco at the buffer stop and another has to couple onto the carriages to haul them away. So I dont understand why the big difference. Doing it automatically would require some space for the arriving loco to stop at a specific point then uncouple and separate. Having the release in place doesnt mean it has to be used either.

[Harlequin]

15 hours ago, RobinofLoxley said:

19 hours ago, JoeFerrito said:

 

Something along these lines, perhaps? Wondering if I could potentially fit the second goods siding in, but on the whole I like this better. I see what you mean about the curve doing a lot for the aesthetics – need to train my brain to think in something other than straight lines!

I assume you've left out the relief slips and a platform accidentally. This is now an entirely different plan dedicated for an urban terminus with fast turnaround. So fast that whatever is on the other end will be the bottleneck and inhibit the fast interchange of services that the plan provides for. The sidings are now one loco shunt 1 carriage siding as I see it, plus the service point. So there won't be many movements on scene - released express locos will go off scene to turn, the suburban service locos will use the shunt siding to run round or clear for the next train, which is good. But that is all.

 

I wonder about the fact that the central relief road for express locos is continuous with the departures line, and the platform access is from the slip. It doesnt seem quite right but I expect it happened.

 

 

 

CJF's Crutched Friars, where this all started, was also a fast-turnaround urban terminus without loco release facilities and no means of turning express locos on scene.

 

Joe's plan here is based on my suggested recipe above.

 

The idea behind going down to three platforms was to allow space for longer, non-kickback goods sidings behind the passenger station. Much more workable and more like many prototypes. I think Joe could, should, have two goods sidings behind, with the backmost passing through a shed, which would also help to define the limits of the scene. Two sidings plus the release loop would allow for useful and fun goods shunting activities.

 

The release loop allows a goods loco to deal with its train without bothering the station pilot and to sensibly shunt the yard itself. The release loop spur can hold the brakevan.

 

The middle carriage siding means that ECS stock doesn't have to be shuffled off-scene, it can be shunted into the carriage siding and other movements can take place either side until that stock is needed again, when it can be shunted into any of the platforms for departure. The carriage siding can also be used for making up trains, e.g. storing some of the early morning parcels vans for later attachment to an outgoing passenger train, storing vans from the goods yard to go out as tail traffic, or just as somewhere for a loco to stand aside while stock is shunted into place.

 

Can you explain more about what operations you think are missing here, Robin?

 

Edited September 15, 2022 by Harlequin

[TravisM]

19 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

I always get confused when people add a loco release to a Minories type layout. There wasn't one at Liverpool Street station (Met Rly) which the plan is based on. The train arrived in the bay platform with a Met electric on the front, there would be another one in the loco siding ready to back down and take the train out.

 

Clive, I have to agree with you but as Liverpool St (Met) was a through station with a bay platform, the loco siding needs to be facing the bay platform for ease of operation.  On Minories and this plan, the loco release has to serve all the platforms, so it's better placed where it is for operational reasons. 

[The Stationmaster]

3 hours ago, Peter Kazmierczak said:

Second thoughts..

But needs a single slip from Platform 2 towards the departure line to provide the sort of extra parallel facility a busy urban terminus would require.  BTW the centre road can also be used to stand a turnover engine but then it too would benefit from a single slip connection towards the Down line.

[The Stationmaster]

17 hours ago, Martino said:

I too am in the early stages of planning a layout possibly based on a terminus and have considered the layout of Windsor and Eton Central.  This was essentially a branch line terminus but laid out like a major station to cater for Queen Victoria.   My idea is to probably use a simplified version as existed in either 1957 or after the branch was singled, so 1963 ish.   The early layout seem to take up way to much space.   The station had four platforms, engine release (both scissors or later simple crossovers) and two goods yards - a simple high level and a more elaborate lower level.   Locomotive servicing was carried out at Slough, so ‘off stage’.

 

I have track layout but they are copyright.  Everything is in a book “Windsor to Slough : A Royal Branch Line’ by C.R. Potts. Oak wood Press 1993.

Don't forget that Windsor GWR didn't just have four platforms to suit the Royalty aspect (which only ever would need two as the absolute maximum plus a possible third for the branch train.  The big reason for extra platforms at Windsor was the running of through trains to/from London, including the City pre-war, plus the considerable volume of excursion traffic with extra trains.

 

https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/gwa/S108.htm

Edited September 15, 2022 by The Stationmaster

[Miss Prism]

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Extra crossover for you Mike... I just wanted to avoid slips in the design.