RhB stations on a gradient?

[Samedan]

Hopefully, this will be a quick question that will elicit a flood of good examples. Ideally, I need to place a simple intermediate station - passing loop and one platform - on a moderate gradient on my U/C HOm layout. The loop will be about 3ft long. I understand why stations are normally as near level as possible but I wonder if there are any examples of Swiss “main line”, non-rack section, metre gauge stations on noticeable gradients out there? My line will be operated by the RhB but examples from MOB, Brunig or MGB etc will be gratefully noted. 

[SBB1]

I believe Stugl/Stuls station (now closed) on the Albula Railway is on a gradient, and the gradient profile on this document would appear to back that up: https://www.rhb.ch/fileadmin/user_upload/redaktion/Ueber_die_RhB/UNESCO Welterbe/Dokumente/Kandidaturdossier/Englisch/2a3_en.pdf

 

 

[Gordonwis]

8 hours ago, SBB1 said:

I believe Stugl/Stuls station (now closed) on the Albula Railway is on a gradient, and the gradient profile on this document would appear to back that up: https://www.rhb.ch/fileadmin/user_upload/redaktion/Ueber_die_RhB/UNESCO Welterbe/Dokumente/Kandidaturdossier/Englisch/2a3_en.pdf

 

 

 

Stugl-Stuls may be on a gradient, but I've been there and it isn't particularly apparent, possible because it's hemmed in a bit.

 

Many RhB stations are on a ruling gradient but the station section is generally level in appearance

 

For example Saas im Prattigau: https://goo.gl/maps/1A1tdifGYBJDfmpV9

Edited September 27, 2022 by Gordonwis

[Gordonwis]

9 hours ago, Samedan said:

Hopefully, this will be a quick question that will elicit a flood of good examples. Ideally, I need to place a simple intermediate station - passing loop and one platform - on a moderate gradient on my U/C HOm layout. The loop will be about 3ft long. I understand why stations are normally as near level as possible but I wonder if there are any examples of Swiss “main line”, non-rack section, metre gauge stations on noticeable gradients out there? My line will be operated by the RhB but examples from MOB, Brunig or MGB etc will be gratefully noted. 

 

I think you might struggle. I can't think of any main line metre gauge Swiss stations with a passing loop that are on an obvious gradient

 

Many RhB stations are on a ruling gradient but the station section is generally level in appearance

 

For example Saas im Prattigau: https://goo.gl/maps/1A1tdifGYBJDfmpV9

 

The only stations which are on a slope are likely to be single platform halts.

 

Don't forget the whole of the RhB network is on Google streetview so you can trawl around for yourself

Edited September 27, 2022 by Gordonwis

[JimFin]

Have a look at Litzirüti on the Chur - Arosa line. Simple curving passing loop. There is a very slight inclination at the station building but the loops to the Arosa side have a more pronounced gradient and a sharp drop away in the Chur direction.

 

[DIW]

On the MOB at Les Cases (immediately east of the Col de Jaman tunnel portal) the passing loop is on a descending gradient (away from the tunnel) while a siding (which starts near the tunnel) is level(-ish). You can see the effect if you strike lucky on this web cam site.

[Glorious NSE]

4 hours ago, JimFin said:

Have a look at Litzirüti on the Chur - Arosa line. Simple curving passing loop. There is a very slight inclination at the station building but the loops to the Arosa side have a more pronounced gradient and a sharp drop away in the Chur direction.

 

Yeah, I think here's a few examples where you can surmise the original small level station area has been expanded and extended onto the grade at one or both ends, but I can't think of one where the main part of the station isn't level.

 

[PaulRhB]

 

Litziruti and a few others have the gradient start before the loop ends but the train usually stops on the level. Anywhere with a goods loop or sidings would have to be level for safety and the small Tm2/2 tractors only had a handbrake so were banned from shunting on gradients due to low brake force. 

At Arosa the end of the loop drops away

 

Filisur one end climbs and one drops within the loop but outside the platforms. 

 

 

and at Bergün the end of the platform does go onto the gradient, just. 

 

Edited September 28, 2022 by PaulRhB

[Siberian Snooper]

9 hours ago, JimFin said:

Have a look at Litzirüti on the Chur - Arosa line. Simple curving passing loop. There is a very slight inclination at the station building but the loops to the Arosa side have a more pronounced gradient and a sharp drop away in the Chur direction.

 

 

I might have a recent photo of that station, having traversed the line a fortnight ago, I will need to go through my photos, probably tomorrow.

 

 

 

[Gordonwis]

10 hours ago, Glorious NSE said:

Yeah, I think here's a few examples where you can surmise the original small level station area has been expanded and extended onto the grade at one or both ends, but I can't think of one where the main part of the station isn't level.

 

 

Agreed. All Paul's pictures are examples of that. For example If you look at an old picture of Arosa, the platforms and loops were shorter, the descent to the tunnel was on what was then plain single track

 

And Litziruti immediate station appears to be pretty level in this picture:

https://www.historic-rhb.ch/chur-arosa-696.html

Edited September 28, 2022 by Gordonwis

[PaulRhB]

32 minutes ago, Gordonwis said:

If you look at an old picture of Arosa, the platforms and loops were shorter, the descent to the tunnel was on what was then plain single track

The dynamic loops, longer trains and modernisation for subways have radically altered the stations in the last 15 years. Before that I don’t remember many stations extending onto the gradient 

 

Bergün did just by about half a coach back in 2008 with the old layout. 

 

[Gordonwis]

Here are the pictures of Stugl that I mentioned in a previous post. They were in fact from the same 2009 holiday where we spent the week next to Madulain station platform

 

There is indeed some slope in evidence

[chb2488]

There is Stablini on the Bernina line, although it doesn‘t have a platform and isn‘t exactly on a moderate gradient…

[Siberian Snooper]

As promised, a couple of fots.

 

 

And looking back down towards the station area.

 

 

HTH

 

[Gordonwis]

5 hours ago, chb2488 said:

There is Stablini on the Bernina line, although it doesn‘t have a platform and isn‘t exactly on a moderate gradient…

 

 

If we are now including locations without platforms then that changes the goalposts! - there is the obvious one: Muot. I was previously going to mention Muot, but didn't because it is not a public station with platforms. 

 

In fact Muot is a great prototype for a model layout - all the facets of a station without the bother of adding people, modelling a station forecourt, making platforms (not always the easiest thing to create in model form, especially in a country where platforms have certain 'subtleties' to them (especially pre current modernisation versions)

Edited September 29, 2022 by Gordonwis

[Gordonwis]

2 hours ago, Siberian Snooper said:

As promised, a couple of fots.

 

 

 

And looking back down towards the station area.

 

 

HTH

 

 

 

That's a great angle. It really illustrates how the actual station 'envelope' is generally level despite gradients either side. 

 

 

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[DGO]

1 hour ago, Gordonwis said:

 

 

That's a great angle. It really illustrates how the actual station 'envelope' is generally level despite gradients either side. 

 

 

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I think this shows the typical Swiss way of doing things, generally when the line was installed they made sure all the stations were on the flat, if that meant raising or lowering the surrounding ground level to make it flat thats what they did. If you specifically want a spot where the track is on a gradient you need to look for somewhere that was added after the line was constructed, a halt or passing spot added at some later date where they either didn't want to try and flatten out a bit of track or could not for technical reasons, on my favourite WAB all the original stations were created with either level or almost level platforms, however one halt that was simply created to take on water in the days of steam never had a platform and is on a gradient and two other stops which were added later are on steep enough gradients that you can easily slide down them in the winter!

[MichaelE]

This model of the Langwies station and surrounding area in on a grade on my layout, but not by choice.

 

[Samedan]

Thank you, thank you, everyone. I think you can stop now, from my point of view, unless you’ve been bitten by this particular bug. 
The consensus from the responses is, I have to admit, pretty much what I expected from my own observations and common sense. In my mind’s eye I suspect I’ve looked at numerous stations where the line takes off on a significant gradient and just got the impression of a station on a ruling gradient (Bergun, Filisur etc). I probably also can’t “unsee” stations on rack sections, although even there, stations are preferably level. 
It is apparent, though, that at some locations, gradients start just at, if not slightly before, the end of platforms. I found a couple of stark examples of very simple halts on rack sections in the chapter entitled “Kleine und Kuriose Haltestellen” in Cyrill Seifert’s “Bahnhöfe dear Schweiz”: Rennaz and Lally. 
So, my choices for the layout are basically abandon the idea of a small, intermediate passing station, try to work a short, level passing loop into the plan (with resultant reduction in height gain) or simply employ modellers licence, as MichaelE has done with his model of Langwies and as I saw recently in a YouTube video from “Marklin of Sweden”. A decent length passing loop, with some scenic interest, would certainly help in the location on the plan that I’m considering. No trackbed has been built as yet, so I can ponder the question whilst I finish off the basic benchwork (to borrow the American term). 

[PaulRhB]

Topics like this are a useful reference in future as someone else will ponder the same question 😉

 

Maybe just ease the gradient, rather than abandoning it altogether,  on the loop so it isn’t obvious compared to the grades either end. Create a few view blocks with trees and maybe even station building so it’s just glimpses of the train. The buildings could be put a fraction off level too with a shim under one side just to ease the effect. 

[MrTea]

On 29/09/2022 at 10:26, Gordonwis said:

 

 

If we are now including locations without platforms then that changes the goalposts! - there is the obvious one: Muot. I was previously going to mention Muot, but didn't because it is not a public station with platforms. 

 

In fact Muot is a great prototype for a model layout - all the facets of a station without the bother of adding people, modelling a station forecourt, making platforms (not always the easiest thing to create in model form, especially in a country where platforms have certain 'subtleties' to them (especially pre current modernisation versions)

I’d second Gordon’s suggestion of Muot. Although I am biased because that’s what Veja Megstra is based on. 

On my representation the station area is on the flat because I was worried about having the turnouts on a gradient so the running line slopes up and down at either end of the station which isn’t prototypical. 
 

On photos of the real place you can see the ruling gradient on photos of the station building quite clearly. e.g.

 

 

 

 

Although, just to complicate matters, I did notice that in the chapter of the Albula line in John Marshall’s book, the  gradient profile of the line on p76 shows the station area at Muot as 0% ie. flat. I'm not sure if this is correct because it doesn't look flat on the reference pictures I have.

 

http://rhbstations.co.za/stations/muot/

Edited October 1, 2022 by MrTea
Added image

[Gordonwis]

16 hours ago, MrTea said:

I’d second Gordon’s suggestion of Muot. Although I am biased because that’s what Veja Megstra is based on. 
 

Although, just to complicate matters, I did notice that in the chapter of the Albula line in John Marshall’s book, the  gradient profile of the line on p76 shows the station area at Muot as 0% ie. flat. I'm not sure if this is correct because it doesn't look flat on the reference pictures I have.

 

http://rhbstations.co.za/stations/muot/

 

If you look at the contours on Swissgeo, the north (lower) end of the Muot loop intersects the 1570m contour. The south end of the loop is close to the 1590m contour so there is definitely a gradient

 

. 

[PaulRhB]

3 minutes ago, Gordonwis said:

 

If you look at the contours on Swissgeo, the north (lower) end of the Muot loop intersects the 1570m contour. The south end of the loop is close to the 1590m contour so there is definitely a gradient

 

. 

The 1580 contour crosses the loop near one end and touches it at the other on  Swisstopo but the 1590 only gets close at the tunnel mouth so I think that’s the rock face, plus 20m would be rather extreme to climb in that short distance.
 

©️ Swisstopo

 https://map.wanderland.ch/?lang=en&bgLayer=pk&resolution=1&photos=yes&logo=yes&detours=yes&season=summer&E=2777660&N=1164231

[MrTea]

That mapping resource is really useful. Thanks Gordon and Paul!

 

I also can’t believe I missed the place just to the north that’s delightfully named ‘Crap Furo’. 😂

[Gordonwis]

16 hours ago, MrTea said:

 

I also can’t believe I missed the place just to the north that’s delightfully named ‘Crap Furo’. 😂

 

There are much funnier ones than Crap Furo. There is indeed crap all over Rhaetia/Grischun... Crap is the Rumantsch word for variously rock/stone/outcrop/ rocky edge (the latter being in a similar vein to eg Froggatt Edge in the Peak District)

Edited October 2, 2022 by Gordonwis