WW1 "Warwell" 34 Ton 12 cwt, December 1918

[Chris hndrsn]

During WW1 the Ministry of Munitions began the acquisition of well wagons* for the ROD, to augment the Parrot (Warflat) wagons that were designed and constructed from 1917.  I imagine these well wagons were intended for the Mark V* and the Mark VI tank which was cancelled in December 1917.  At least a few examples of a 34 ton capacity well wagons made it to France as they were used for the movement of the German A7V surrendered by the Germans after the Armistice and were photographed loaded with A7V's named "Schnuck" and "Hagen" at the Tank Corps HQ repair shop at Erin, probably in December 1918.  Noting the intended Mark VIII Victory/International heavy tank was 38 ton and ten (10) metres long, by late 1918 I imagine stronger and longer examples of the of these well wagons were also in production. 

 

Would any member know of an OO Gauge version of these wagon?  Or schematic drawings of the wagons?  I imagine REE in France has produced a HO Scale version of it in the past, as many former ROD and USArmy TP wagons were gifted/sold to France and Belgium railways, many soldering on in France until at least the 1970's.

 

Cheers,

Chris hndrsn

 

* If any one knows the telegraph reporting code of the well wagon, as unlike the Parrot/warflat's, it is not stencilled on the wagon, that would be great as well

[Fat Controller]

21 hours ago, Chris hndrsn said:

During WW1 the Ministry of Munitions began the acquisition of well wagons* for the ROD, to augment the Parrot (Warflat) wagons that were designed and constructed from 1917.  I imagine these well wagons were intended for the Mark V* and the Mark VI tank which was cancelled in December 1917.  At least a few examples of a 34 ton capacity well wagons made it to France as they were used for the movement of the German A7V surrendered by the Germans after the Armistice and were photographed loaded with A7V's named "Schnuck" and "Hagen" at the Tank Corps HQ repair shop at Erin, probably in December 1918.  Noting the intended Mark VIII Victory/International heavy tank was 38 ton and ten (10) metres long, by late 1918 I imagine stronger and longer examples of the of these well wagons were also in production. 

 

Would any member know of an OO Gauge version of these wagon?  Or schematic drawings of the wagons?  I imagine REE in France has produced a HO Scale version of it in the past, as many former ROD and USArmy TP wagons were gifted/sold to France and Belgium railways, many soldering on in France until at least the 1970's.

 

Cheers,

Chris hndrsn

 

* If any one knows the telegraph reporting code of the well wagon, as unlike the Parrot/warflat's, it is not stencilled on the wagon, that would be great as well

A refurbished version of a similar vehicle (with Y25 or similar bogies) still seems to be in service. Some, painted green, serve with the French Army, others, in 'freight brown' can be seen loaded with Caterpillar earth-movers and Claas combine-harvesters. The works that deals with the planned maintenance is the 'Ateliers de Flandres', which is adjacent to Hazebrouck station, near Calais. 

The vehicle used to be available from  'Playcraft', and was later in the Jouef range. It used to be described as a 'wagon surbaisse'

Edited September 29, 2022 by Fat Controller

[Edwardian]

Gramodels - see page 10

[Mark Saunders]

It seems to me that you are asking if they were brought to the UK after the armistice?

 

I doubt any of these did as it’s not a type I recognise!

[Chris hndrsn]

16 hours ago, Mark Saunders said:

It seems to me that you are asking if they were brought to the UK after the armistice?

 

I doubt any of these did as it’s not a type I recognise!

No.  I wasn't asking whether they were "brought" to the UK.  As they were ordered by the Ministry of Munitions I imagine they were constructed in the UK.  Most, like the Parrot (Warflat style) wagons would have been shipped to France for erection, though some may have been kept in the UK, if only to move the disassembled chassis and bogie kits to the port/ferries.  I suspect the MofM contract was cancelled in Nov 1918 at the same time the Mk VIII International tank was cancelled.

 

I realise the likelihood of these well wagons being in common UK use was low and therefore probably never made as a scale model, I was hoping someone may have seen/know of the drawings and their location where I could get a copy.

 

As an aside, much like the WW1 Parrot wagon was the forebear of the WW2 Warflat, I would suggest the well wagon in the 1918 photograph was the forebear of the WW2 Warwell. 

 

Cheers,

Chris

Edited September 30, 2022 by Chris hndrsn
grammar

[Chris hndrsn]

On 29/09/2022 at 02:15, Fat Controller said:

A refurbished version of a similar vehicle (with Y25 or similar bogies) still seems to be in service. Some, painted green, serve with the French Army, others, in 'freight brown' can be seen loaded with Caterpillar earth-movers and Claas combine-harvesters. The works that deals with the planned maintenance is the 'Ateliers de Flandres', which is adjacent to Hazebrouck station, near Calais. 

The vehicle used to be available from  'Playcraft', and was later in the Jouef range. It used to be described as a 'wagon surbaisse'

Thank you, looking at the 1963 Playcraft wagons they were modelled on the "25 ton Weltrol" wagons (they are labelled "Weltrol").  If the French Army wagons are marked as 35.2 Metric Tonnes they may well be ones that were handed over by the ROD in 1919/20.  Would you happen to know of a French enthusiast website that would have images of wagons at Ateliers de Flandres workshops or French Army depots?

[Fat Controller]

5 hours ago, Chris hndrsn said:

Thank you, looking at the 1963 Playcraft wagons they were modelled on the "25 ton Weltrol" wagons (they are labelled "Weltrol").  If the French Army wagons are marked as 35.2 Metric Tonnes they may well be ones that were handed over by the ROD in 1919/20.  Would you happen to know of a French enthusiast website that would have images of wagons at Ateliers de Flandres workshops or French Army depots?

This site has views of  the workshops at Hazebrouck, and sometimes has shots of Armeé du Terre wagons:-

https://lapassiondutrain.blogspot.com/

The search facility is not brilliant, I'm afraid, but you could try mailing them.

[Cwmtwrch]

According to Wikipedia, the A7V was about 10ft wide. Clearly the body is wider than the tracks, but even so, it looks as though the wagons are about 9ft wide and 50 ft long [very roughly]. If this is even close, then the wagons would foul the British loading gauge, I think. They could have been built in France to a WD order, or may be existing wagons purchased in France.

 

One A7V came to London, but that may have been via London Docks, avoiding the rail transit from Dover [at 10ft wide it would have been an oversize load requiring special arrangements]. The British wagon designed for loads too high or too heavy to travel on a flat was the Rectank. The A7V was 31T fully loaded, but would have been lighter without secondary weapons, ammunition, etc.

[Chris hndrsn]

As a follow up, the WD wagon type that the A7V was carried on is modelled by AMF87 from France, price is out of my league for a scale model example to run around with an A7V on it. More importantly a 4mm scale A7V on a 3.5mm scale wagon would look a bit odd and I would like to model one in 1/76.

 

In April 2022 an image of one modified for container use in revenue service was posted to a French enthusiasts website.  https://www.patrimoine-ferroviaire.fr/angleterre-wd-plat-surbaisse-long-xxxx-sncf-tergnier-2018/. How many 100 year plus wagons run around the UK?

 

Would anyone be able to point me to book/s, or websites, of French railway wagons with scale wagon drawings from 1910 onwards?  

 

Cheers,

Chris

Edited October 23, 2022 by Chris hndrsn
Added 4mm/3.5mm scale issue

[Chris hndrsn]

On 30/09/2022 at 21:52, Cwmtwrch said:

... If this is even close, then the wagons would foul the British loading gauge, I think. They could have been built in France to a WD order, or may be existing wagons purchased in France. ...

France had lost a significant part of it industrial capacity wth the loss of Lille and the surrounding region and were busy with their own work. Indeed it had been agreed by late 1917(?) that many wagons built for the ROD would be built to European standards, so that they could be sold to France and Belgium post war.  I have a large panorama from the AWM.gov.au of a forward ROD yard in a valley which seems to be all metal sheeted vans and metal sheeted LSWR style road vans that post war were taken over by NORD and subsequently SNCF.  I assume that these particular Well Wagons were part of this arrangement. 

 

Many wagons were sent over to France as multiple knock down kits running on one of the chassis in that batch, I have posted an image of such a kit a few years ago.  But for these, if they were out of gauge for the UK, then they were probably built on contract in Canada or the US.