German fiNescale 160 - 2mm association wheels and/or axles?

[Guest WM183]

Hi all!

I have a lot of irons in the fire, modelling-wise. One of the more recent is German N-scale, which I enjoy a lot, but the usual N-scale drawbacks - wheel width and flange height, and couplings - are a bit of a downer. I know there exists a German "fiNescale" movement, but they're not supported by any real society. Most of what I can find - in English and German - says they use primarily 2mm SA wheels, etc for their models, which makes sense to me. 

I have some wagons, first and foremost. The usual Fleischmann N-scale wheels are massive things. I would like to use 2mm SA wheels - the small difference in details and the .25mm difference in diameter are pretty irrelevant - but the axles are 15mm long. The 20mm SA lists wheels that are 14.80 and 15.20; has anyone done this? I hate to chuck every axle into the lathe to turn .2mm off them, but if I must I suppose I must?

All the best!

Amanda

[Nigelcliffe]

The German fiNescale usually takes 2mm standards and reduces the track gauge by 0.45mm.  And also takes the same from the back-to-back of wheels, so wagon wheels need to be carefully pushed along their axles to the revised back-to-back distance. 

 

The wheel treads from the Association shop need track with matching turnout dimensions at the crossing (frog) and wing-rails.   There is little chance of them running correctly if you've not changed the track at the same time, and a fair chance they get stuck or de-rail whilst going over an N-gauge turnout.    Track and wheels have to work together as a standard - can't just use half the standard.   

 

For 2mm SA wheels/axles, I suggest you try both sizes and see what works. 
They have different cone angles (for historic reasons to match the N-gauge axles of the time when they were designed), so its not just a 0.4mm difference in length. 
If the 15.2 proves to be a bit too long, you may find that a quick rub on a stone (sharpening stone used to sharpen lathe tools) is all that's needed, and certainly not the hassle of lathe adjustments to each axle.   
Plastic moulded parts will have an assumption about the type and geometry of the end of the axle when they were designed.  

  

 

If adjusting back-to-back of wheels, and you have a lathe, then an axle-pusher can be made which fits in the tailstock. 
A piece of bar, drilled 0.5mm diameter for about 1.5mm depth, with the end of the hole opened to a slight cone (to say 0.75mm, but that's very approximate).  That is used to push on the end of an axle on the slides of the cone, so not pressing on the point.  
The complete wheels can then be put in the lathe, supported in the headstock chuck, with rim against jaws, but axle NOT tight in chuck.  Gently push tailstock pusher to reduce back-to-back by 0.2mm, then turn axle round, and repeat 0.2mm reduction from other end.  Thus wheels remain central on axle.    
It's essentially the method used to put the wheels on the axle in manufacture, though is usually done in a vertical press tool, rather than horizontally.   

 

 

 

- Nigel

 

[Guest WM183]

Hi Nigel,

Oh I plan to built the track to the fiNescale standard too! I should have said that perhaps. It is TEMPTING to simply use 2mm SA track and scale width, and just deal with the discrepancy - it still would look worlds better than anything in "regular" N - but I am not scared of soldering track and making some gauges. I'll rejoin the 2mm SA - my favorite of the societies I've joined by far! - and get some of the axles and a few other bits. 

[Nigelcliffe]

Copying the regular 2mm track gauges, but to 8.97mm gauge won't be difficult if you have a lathe - both the roller gauge and the "button" gauges are useful.  

 

If you've not seen it before, the book "Track" from the 2mm shop is very thorough.  Mostly UK-prototype, but there's not that much difference to other country's track systems.  Covers how the prototype works, and numerous gauges, techniques, etc.. to produce model track.  

 

 

- Nigel

[2mmMark]

4 hours ago, WM183 said:

Hi all!

I have a lot of irons in the fire, modelling-wise. One of the more recent is German N-scale, which I enjoy a lot, but the usual N-scale drawbacks - wheel width and flange height, and couplings - are a bit of a downer. I know there exists a German "fiNescale" movement, but they're not supported by any real society. Most of what I can find - in English and German - says they use primarily 2mm SA wheels, etc for their models, which makes sense to me. 

I have some wagons, first and foremost. The usual Fleischmann N-scale wheels are massive things. I would like to use 2mm SA wheels - the small difference in details and the .25mm difference in diameter are pretty irrelevant - but the axles are 15mm long. The 20mm SA lists wheels that are 14.80 and 15.20; has anyone done this? I hate to chuck every axle into the lathe to turn .2mm off them, but if I must I suppose I must?

All the best!

Amanda

 

It's quite possible that you could use 2mm Association wagon chassis components inside the underframe mouldings.

Products 2-314 and 2-315 are designed to go inside the Chivers N scale underframe kits, these may well be suitable.

Mark

[Klaus ojo]

Hello Amanda,

do you know the pages of Henk Oversloot (starting modelling in FS160: www.fs160.eu  ) or Jens Emmermann ( RAW-Nette J.Emmermann  www.raw-nette.de/index_eb.htm  ) ?

You will find fs160 people at N finescale at FREMO.  https://www.fremo-net.eu/nl/home/

For the wagon: If you take 2mmSA chassis and give the wheels slightly a push to reduce BTB for 0.5mm: this would work. Using a BTG gauge for the reduced BTB of course is better. I´ve fitted several finescale bodies to 2mm chassis and -depending on the prototype- you will barely notice and it mostly will be an improvement for early (era I) models. (For more modern models the springs and axle boxes would be more different. Or you plonk some 2mm W irons between the plastic springs and axle boxes. What are your esthetical ambitions?)

If you are having a Fleischmann model: see above at Nigel.

for the loco: you could use the 2mm wheels but you should file the ends to keep the axles insulated from each other when pressing the muff on. The modellers here in Germany in many cases seem to make their own wheels or turn down wheels from RTR locos.

There we some posts in the "any questions answered" thread recently.

I am currently trying something similar the other way round: Constructing a loco to n gauge finescale to be able to run it on both n gauge rail and 2mm. 

I wish you much fun and success

Klaus

Edited October 1, 2022 by Klaus ojo
FREMO added

[flubrush]

3 hours ago, Nigelcliffe said:

Copying the regular 2mm track gauges, but to 8.97mm gauge won't be difficult if you have a lathe - both the roller gauge and the "button" gauges are useful. 

 I just purchased the 2mm Association gauge,  drilled a hole through the centre and tapped 8BA then cut the gauge in half,  tidied up the inner, sawn faces on the lathe,  mounted the two parts on an 8BA screw and adjusted them until the gauge was achieved and locked the two parts with nuts.   Saved finding a slotting tool. :-)

 

Jim.

Edited September 30, 2022 by flubrush

[Chris Higgs]

I have done this. On lots of Fleischmann coaches and wagons. The 15.2mm works fine, in fact it was me who first arranged for the 15.2mm axles on 6mm plain disc wheels to be done for this purpose. The 14.2mm and 13.7mm were created for the same purpose, as other manufacturers have different axle lengths. And indeed you can take a smigeon off axles on the end. But be careful, you cannot put it back on! It takes the tiniest touch with a file to reduce the length by quite a bit.

 

I have a set of Roco 6-wheel coaches which run quite nicely, they have Cleminson chassis. It always amuses me how the continental manufactures get their coaches to couple up with almost no gap between the corridor connectors when the British RTR seem to think that is impossible.

 

Chris

 

BTW, I find the 14.8mm axles pretty much useless, even for the Peco wagons they are supposed to work with. The coning angle is designed for the Association bearing cups and that is what it works with.

 

 

Edited September 30, 2022 by Chris Higgs

[roythebus1]

Why not make one of those tools that drills out the axle boxes a bit? A cone one one end, a drill bit the other end. I think DCC Concepts make them for 4mm scale, they my do then for 2mm as well. It'll save a lot of bother filing down axles.

Edited September 30, 2022 by roythebus1

[Klaus ojo]

Roy,

I am not sure what is better. sanding the tip minimally or finescale drilling in plastics?

It might differ from model to model, but when I made a check with the next available wagon in my boxes I found that one wheel 15.2mm was spinning freely while the second was a tighter fit not yet spinning. It is not much to get them spinning. - Thanks, Chris, for these wheelsets! Now I could get a 2mm poultry wagon within minutes...

Alternatively with  cutting off all 4 edges the W irons 2-312f from shop2 will fit exactly between the plastic W irons of my Fleischmann 4 wheel van. With a bit of filing on the bottom and drilling a hole for the screw it might even be possible to mount the 12.25 mm W irons reversable. The brass bearings will be a fit into the hole in the axleboxes. At least on this model. Amanda, what models do you have? Eventually I might have one to check as well...

cheers

Klaus

 

Edited September 30, 2022 by Klaus ojo

[Guest WM183]

Wow!

Thank you so much for the responses. It is great to see there's other people in this scale here. It definitely gets over the shortcomings of Continental N. I do some dabbling in "regular" 2mm FS too and have built several wagons and most of a loco (42xx) so far.

Nigel, I was thinking that. I will chuck some aluminum and brass in my lathe and make some chips. I will also make the wheel pusher setup - that's a really good idea!

Flubrush, I will probably just copy a regular 2mm gauge - I need them anyway - but just reduce the width to 8.97mm. These teeny things are easy enough for my tired old Unimat. 

Klaus, I am quite familiar with Henk Oversloot's website - it was that site that made me want to try this - and the nette site also, though Henk's site a bit more. I have an assortment of 4 wheel wagons - mostly the common G10s, Om12s, etc that everyone has, from Fleischmann - and a trio of bogie coaches, era III I think. I also have a BR 94 lok, also from Fleischmann.

Chris, It's good to know that the 15.2mm axles are purpose made for this. I have a handful of Fleischmann wagons (4 wheel ones, era I and also some III) and did notice the existing axles have a bit of slop in them. The extra .2mm length likely is to make up for that? And yeah, the German models I have are little clockwork things; in N or H0 they're just amazing quality. I have a Roco BR 50 in h0 that is easily the best running model I have ever owned, silent, gorgeous, and will pull the paint from the walls.

Roy... you may be on to something. I couldnt use a conventional drill type tool, due to the axleguards themselves interfering with drilling straight into them. Maybe something like an allen key - bent - with a countersink-type tippy part?

[Chris Higgs]

13 hours ago, roythebus1 said:

Why not make one of those tools that drills out the axle boxes a bit? A cone one one end, a drill bit the other end. I think DCC Concepts make them for 4mm scale, they my do then for 2mm as well. It'll save a lot of bother filing down axles.

 

But isn't reversible (in case you ever want to sell the stock). I have used those tools in 4mm, they didn't work as well as advertised. I ended up melting the bearings into place. Which didn't work that well either (as you might expect). 

 

Filing down axles takes only a couple of seconds, a lot less time than using one of those tools. And is perhaps a good idea anyway, as the very sharp points on them do have a habit of eating their way into the plastic and out of the front.

 

Chris

Edited October 1, 2022 by Chris Higgs

[Chris Higgs]

12 hours ago, Klaus ojo said:

Roy,

I am not sure what is better. sanding the tip minimally or finescale drilling in plastics?

It might differ from model to model, but when I made a check with the next available wagon in my boxes I found that one wheel 15.2mm was spinning freely while the second was a tighter fit not yet spinning. It is not much to get them spinning. - Thanks, Chris, for these wheelsets! Now I could get a 2mm poultry wagon within minutes...

Alternatively with  cutting off all 4 edges the W irons 2-312f from shop2 will fit exactly between the plastic W irons of my Fleischmann 4 wheel van. With a bit of filing on the bottom and drilling a hole for the screw it might even be possible to mount the 12.25 mm W irons reversable. The brass bearings will be a fit into the hole in the axleboxes. At least on this model. Amanda, what models do you have? Eventually I might have one to check as well...

cheers

Klaus

 

 

2-314 is better, it doesn't need anything cutting off. The main question is whether you would need to cut a slot in the floor to accomodate it. There is a picture in the shop listings. And none of them will work with bogies, that would probably need a specialised etch.

 

Chris

Edited October 1, 2022 by Chris Higgs

[Klaus ojo]

Chris,

you are right, 2-314 is a much better choice. On my wagon I would  still  need to cut off the edges - or make a slot into the plastic chassis. (Unfortunately I don´t have some to show. For other purpose I wanted the brake gear the 2-315 has).

For fs160 the BTB still needs to be reduced. The correct tool doing this would be a jeweller´s press with some appropriate jigs. Mick Simpson some time ago did explain me how to do it and in the magazine there was an article about this as well ( Oct2020.pdf (2mm.org.uk) ) So I bought a press and -shame - did not do anything with it. 

Amanda,

so it looks you are well informed, skilled and supplied with tools...

Do you intend to finescale the BR94 (T16)? I suppose you would need to adapt the pick up as well then. There are easier prototypes to begin with...

For my own purpose I try to keep it simple. It is enough that I am doing things everybody is warning me to do. (mix up standards and so..) I´ve attached a photo of my first test loco with 8.2mm BTB which is still in construction. It is supposed to run on N gauge track (to be social with all my neighbourhood here) and on 2mm track which I will keep despite of BR finescale points available now.

ceers

Klaus

Edited October 1, 2022 by Klaus ojo

[Nigelcliffe]

1 hour ago, Klaus ojo said:

 

For fs160 the BTB still needs to be reduced. The correct tool doing this would be a jeweller´s press with some appropriate jigs. Mick Simpson some time ago did explain me how to do it and in the magazine there was an article about this as well ( Oct2020.pdf (2mm.org.uk) ) So I bought a press and -shame - did not do anything with it. 

 

 

The outline I gave earlier of how to press wheels in a lathe with a tailstock pusher has all the necessary features - the hollow tool to press on the slope of the cone, and that it is the wheel at the opposite end of the axle which is moved along the axle by the pushing action.   The lathe will ensure pressure is along the axle, and not applied in an offset manner. 
For small quantities of wheels which an individual is likely to use, the simple pushing rod in the tailstock of a lathe is the most time-effective solution.     
I led the wagon wheel assembly team for a very long time, so know a lot about the details of the production press tools.      

 

 

- Nigel

[Klaus ojo]

Thanks Nigel,

I should have read this more thoroughly.

Fortunately I am owning a little Chinese lathe.

Another question: what do you recommend using for a longer axle? Is this some special steel?

The Minitrix wagons originally are having a axle length of 15.4mm, may even need 15.6mm with 2mmFS wheelsets. The 15.2 axles from the shop are too sloppy and consequently the wagon will sit about awfully visible too low. I would prefer changing the wheelsets because inserting 2mmSA W irons would need much filing and the plastic chassis may loose its stability.

thank you in advance

Klaus

[Jan W]

Klaus,

Did you think about glueing 2mmSA tophat bearings in the original bearings?

I did this with a Farish van and it works fine.

IIRC I used some plasticard shims to get the axles to fit corectly.

 

No idea what axle length you would need with the Minitrix coach but you can simply try it without glue first of course.

 

Jan

[Klaus ojo]

Jan, 

yes I did and tried and have faced some difficulties.

First I had to open the holes for better fit. I do not know a drill allowing this really rectangularly.

And than it is a guesswork to glue the bearings with correct distance for axle length. With some more thinking about there certainly is a dodge or jig to do this reliably. I know another source for brass bearings more tolerant for angle misalignment as well. But basically this was working without fiddly brass bearings before...

To be honest: I have postponed the whole issue because I had much more fun at constructing steam locos, points and 2mm FS wagons.  However, when this question (and Andreas´thread) did arise I´ve  remembered and thought it is worth to share this and possibly get some answers. 

cheers

Klaus

[Izzy]

39 minutes ago, Klaus ojo said:

Thanks Nigel,

I should have read this more thoroughly.

Fortunately I am owning a little Chinese lathe.

Another question: what do you recommend using for a longer axle? Is this some special steel?

The Minitrix wagons originally are having a axle length of 15.4mm, may even need 15.6mm with 2mmFS wheelsets. The 15.2 axles from the shop are too sloppy and consequently the wagon will sit about awfully visible too low. I would prefer changing the wheelsets because inserting 2mmSA W irons would need much filing and the plastic chassis may loose its stability.

thank you in advance

Klaus

If you have a lathe then another option is to use it to machine the Minitrix wheels to 2FS. Then you can use the original axles. It’s fairly easy to do. Just skim a bit off the wheel backs to get the 0.3mm flange width. And skim the fronts to reduce the overall width - if you want to. 
 

Bob

[Klaus ojo]

Yes Bob,

I will do this to get some experience in finescaling. I think I´ll even manage with the standard massive form I have plenty of.

Unfortunately I like spoked wheels for my era I models. So another chance to improve my skills..

I don´t know if the photo is making much sense, but it illustrates that some types might need a different approach.  The 2 on the right side are from 2mm shop.

cheers

Klaus

[Chris Higgs]

2 hours ago, Izzy said:

If you have a lathe then another option is to use it to machine the Minitrix wheels to 2FS. Then you can use the original axles. It’s fairly easy to do. Just skim a bit off the wheel backs to get the 0.3mm flange width. And skim the fronts to reduce the overall width - if you want to. 
 

Bob

 

A lot of Continental wheels do not have the NMRA profile Bachmann et al use now. So need the flange depth reducing as well.

 

Chris

[Nigelcliffe]

11 hours ago, Klaus ojo said:

 

Another question: what do you recommend using for a longer axle? Is this some special steel?

The Minitrix wagons originally are having a axle length of 15.4mm, may even need 15.6mm with 2mmFS wheelsets.

 

 

It's just ground 1.0mm diameter steel.  With the ends machined accurately.  Almost any metal would do.   An alternative would be to cut 2mm axles in half, put a piece of thin tube over, and adjust to required length before fixing (solder or glue) in place.  Depends on the numbers needed and effort for either turning pinpoints or cutting and setting the length of axles.   

 

Or if the Minitrix axles happen to be 1.0 diameter, push the Minitrix wheels off, and push 2mm wheels onto those axles. (Use lathe or press to push wheels onto axles if you want them to be wobble-free).    

 

Or use Minitrix axles and in lathe reduce diameter to 1.0mm from each end.  Can keep fatter middle section.   This may be less work than making new axles or cutting axles in half....  

 

 

- Nigel

 

[Klaus ojo]

Thanks Nigel!

So plenty of options. Let´s see what works best!

The Minitrix axles are 1.5 mm like many -but not all-  RTR axles (and of course I don´t have a ID 1mm tube at home to modify the 2mm axles) 

Have a nice weekend!

Klaus

[Ian Morgan]

A couple of years ago, a German producer was supplying some very nice looking kits for spur N German style points, but at eye-watering prices. I cannot find the name again now, and a quick Internet search did not find anything. Can anyone else remember the name?

 

[Klaus ojo]

Hello Ian,

 

 I guess this was spurneun:  www.shop.spurneun.de/shop/category/50-n40 

multi-layer kit with wood and castings

 

or Haubrich  www.juergenhaubrich.de/download/2022preisliste1000.pdf

possibly no longer available

 

more modest prices (caution: you have to choose what you want: part, kit or RTR. And the first price is for the cheapest item):

Mago-finescale  https://www.mago-finescale.de/fine-scale-shop/gleis-system

(this is the fs160-project, milled PCB, rails AFAIK from micro-engineering; see photo of a narrow gauge point under construction)

 

Marsiius  https://www.marsilius-trains.de/n-scale.htm

 

N-tram   

https://spur-n-teile.de/?view_mode=tiled&manufacturers_id=52&listing_sort=shipping_asc&manufacturers_id=52&filter_id=619&listing_count=50    more for diarama than for real track

 

cheers

Klaus

Edited October 2, 2022 by Klaus ojo
added marsilius and haubrich