GNR Orchid Van details

[DayReturn]

There was a one-off (possibly two according to one comment) 6 wheeled van that was used to convey orchids from Sanders Orchid Nurseries east of St Albans, presumably to London.  My St Albans (Abbey) model assumes that it would have turned up on trains terminating at the LNWR Abbey station, and its a fairly straightforward vehicle (!) so worth representing.  I'd like to know what colour it is, i.e. is it painted plain passenger brown to blend in with teak passenger and NPCS stock, or is it GNR freight stock brown?  The one and only photo is of good quality and shows it clad in plain sheeting painted a single colour and varnished, definitely not teak panels or teak scumble paint.  It shows gas lighting pipes and the Diagram Book page reproduced in Taylor & Anderson's book "The Hatfield and St Albans Branch of the Great Northern Railway" states that it is 32ft long over body, vacuum braked with (if my interpretation is correct) Westinghouse through pipe.  So I am fairly confident that teak-colour plain brown is correct.  I note that Nick Campling's book in the Historic Carriage Drawings series references "chocolate" colour in his livery notes, but in context he may be referring to the state of very aged bodywork.  Also the lettering is highlighted to the left, again suggesting a coaching stock finish.

 

The 32ft length suggests that the vehicle may have been converted e.g. from a 32ft 6 wheel full brake, although I understand that GNR 6-wheel carriages appeared in numerous lengths.  Whether the body was built from scratch and mounted on an existing chassis, or refurbished from the skeleton of a withdrawn vehicle, or entirely purpose-built, is obviously conjectural.  There are some apparent discrepancies between the photo and the Diagram Book:  The latter appears to represent a cove roof whereas the photo looks like a shallow elliptical roof.  The diagram shows 6 skylights (I assume) and the photo shows presumably 2 rows of 3 torpedo vents and possibly three central gas lights between them, and no clear sign of the skylights.  Obviously the photo takes precedence, but I'm tempted to cover my bases by adding the skylights too.  Slightly harder to confirm is the shape of the sides.  They appear to be plain verticals, as shown in the Diagram Book.  The far end of the photo appears to confirm this - the end edge looks vertical and the reflection of "G N" from a nearby wagon, looks undistorted.  It may be a trick of the light or the photo rendering, but the near end looks like it has a turn-under.  I'm assuming it hasn't, and that therefore the body was probably purpose-made, not using the joinery frame of a previous carriage stock body.

 

Operationally, GNR St Albans branch passenger trains did attach goods vehicles even though there were timetables freight trains as well, and since this one is clearly NPCS is makes more sense for it to turn up on a passenger train.  Whether it is realistic for it to have traveled between St Albans Abbey station and Sanders Siding is a moot point.  It makes sense for it to have been picked up loaded from Sanders siding at the Campfield Press halt en route to Hatfield, but returning empty, it would be simplest for it to be at the head of the train from Hatfield, run through to Abbey, and then a simple reverse back into Sanders siding on the return to Hatfield.  There was no watering facility on the branch so generally tender engines were stipulated for freight, so by the same token, passenger train tank engine movements would have been kept to a minimum.  (Yes they would anyway of course, but that's an extra reason for expecting to see the van at Abbey station.)

 

My model thus far is still only on the sketch pad but the body will be cut from two layers of 0.020" styrene on my Silhouette.  Roof will be rolled from tinplate for strength - styrene roofs invariably get their corners chipped off - with soldered-on square-section wire for gutter and cantrail.  Chassis will have either brass solebars with punched bolt heads or plain brass with an embossed styrene overlay, plus etched washer plates etc., Mike Trice's Shapeways axleguard assemblies, home-turned sprung buffers in MJT Shapeways housings, and (probably) Bill Bedford sprung inside bearings with the centre axle of 2mm tube sliding laterally on 1mm fixed axle rod.  It will probably be ready by circa 2052. ;-)

 

 

[chris p bacon]

I did etches for this one 18 months ago, I’ve got some details on it but am currently at work and not able to access files, I’ll look later. 

[Wickham Green too]

The possibility of there having been two vans might explain differences to roof shape & fittings etc. - maybe 964 replaced an earlier vehicle ? ( Knowing the way accountants think it might have replaced one numbered 964 just to confuse future historians. )

[DayReturn]

Actually having gone back to Taylor & Anderson, the likelihood of the van turning up at Abbey station is rather slim, according to the description of the movements involving parking it at London Road station after propelling it up the running line, though that goes contrary to the concern about sufficient water supply.  They also say the siding was installed in 1890, that there were other vans (not what kind - perishables, etc?) and that 964 was used later for the hat trade as the orchid trade fell away, and then it was added to LNER parcels vans as 4183.  Plus a reference to a photo of it in 1923 in a goods train.  Oh well!  Its my railway and there's definitely no extra water available (unless my loft leaks, heaven forbid).

[DayReturn]

3 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

The possibility of there having been two vans might explain differences to roof shape & fittings etc. - maybe 964 replaced an earlier vehicle ? ( Knowing the way accountants think it might have replaced one numbered 964 just to confuse future historians. )

Possibly, very probably in many cases, but I suspect not so in this case.  While the Diagram is far from detailed, what it does show in the way of arrangement of sheeting and frame does correspond to the photo, and given that the orchid rail traffic was only significant for about 20 years and that other vehicles did handle it, I suspect Diagram and photo are the same vehicle.  And confusing future historians was no doubt second place on their mind, after confusing HM Revenue regarding capital and revenue expenditure!

[DayReturn]

Here's the Silhouette file ready for a trial cut onto 0.020" styrene.  Not very complex at all.  On second thoughts, the roof arc does not look quite right.  It's an ellipse, and the unstripey ends are narrow by 2 x 1mm - so cropped, the stripey ends by 2 x 0.5mm, cropped less, but to fit between the sides, and the roof would have some eaves woodwork to add, so I think the arithmetic is correct.  I'll take another look in the morning.

Edited October 26, 2022 by DayReturn
I can't think of an intelligent reason.

[chris p bacon]

This was the etch I produced and part way through construction. It's 90% finished but is currently packed away following a house move.

 

[uax6]

Thats a lovely etch Dave, its almost enough to make one want to change allengencies.....

 

Andy G 

[DayReturn]

Thanks for sharing these Dave, it captures the van very well indeed.  I've often mulled over getting into etching, though my propensity to make mistakes magnified by the cost of the process has made me reluctant to start.  Out of curiosity, was the single pair of springs, hangers and axleboxes part of this project or an experiment?  Anyway here is a trial cut, in thin card - too thin to be honest, cereal box card would have been better.  I did it to show up any cutting problems - none - and errors in my dimensions - yes the inside sides were 1mm too short because I sized them to fit between the inside ends instead of the outside ends.  Everything else fitted correctly.

 

 

 

Edited October 27, 2022 by DayReturn
...

[DayReturn]

[DayReturn]

10 hours ago, uax6 said:

Thats a lovely etch Dave, its almost enough to make one want to change allengencies.....

 

Andy G 

It's curious how we cultivate our affinities and allegiances to these ancient denizens of raw Victorian capital dedicated to screwing raw profit out of raw iron and raw-skinned labour.  In my case I bind myself to the Wyvern's standard which for all its Quaker-inspired liberalism, gained vast riches for the coal- and iron-masters of its heartlands at untold human cost; even its erstwhile owner Hudson driving the company in pursuit of his own corrupt greed at the expense of more naive members of the 19th century bourgeoisie.  Meanwhile my modelling effort is diverted to two of its enduring rivals, in the form of the LNWR's estate at St Albans, punctured by its GNR neighbour as above.  And my credentials as an environmental activist are trashed by my determination to run 300 (scale) tons of coal a day into the station to be turned into coal gas and accumulated global meltdown.  Still, it's my hobby and I enjoy it!

[chris p bacon]

1 hour ago, DayReturn said:

Out of curiosity, was the single pair of springs, hangers and axleboxes part of this project or an experiment? 

 

They are for the centre wheel set. The inner springs are set behind the half round bracket(?) and can't really be seen, it only needs an axle box on the front and it allows some more movement on the centre axle. I tried it on the Orchid van and now use it on other 6 wheelers.

[DayReturn]

56 minutes ago, chris p bacon said:

 

They are for the centre wheel set. The inner springs are set behind the half round bracket(?) and can't really be seen, it only needs an axle box on the front and it allows some more movement on the centre axle. I tried it on the Orchid van and now use it on other 6 wheelers.

Makes sense, thank you.  Because GNR 6 wheelers have centre axle W irons on the outside of the solebar to provide a bit of sideplay, whereas eg Midland ones have longer J hangers instead.

[DayReturn]

23 hours ago, DayReturn said:

Makes sense, thank you.  Because GNR 6 wheelers have centre axle W irons on the outside of the solebar to provide a bit of sideplay, whereas eg Midland ones have longer J hangers instead.

Actually GNR ones also have longer J hangers (aka spring stays) on the middle axle.  It’s probably a mechanical necessity to achieve the sideplay.  Midland ones didn’t have these before around late 1870s I construe.  Meanwhile having done the easy bit (as above), I need to fabricate the parts for the underside, and am toying with the idea of a stamp tool to punch out step brackets with a nice bolt plate at the top, since I always need them.  Obviously a part ideal for etching although Slaters kits did them in lost wax casting, very robust for such an exposed feature.  That rules out styrene for the solebars unless I dog-leg plain wire for these step board hangers, soldered to a metal floor, with dummy bolt plates glued to styrene…. too fiddly, reduces wheel clearance and I’ve probably got hundreds to make across numerous projects.

 

Having ruminated thus, and not yet having answers to my OP questions, is there a protocol for moving this thread into a modelling projects folder?  Because that’s what my  ramblings are becoming.

[chris p bacon]

I am currently unable to access the folder with the info on the Orchid van (house move) Not 100% sure where I filed it as it's not on the hard drives I've unpacked.

 

If you want to move this into another folder I would ask @AY Mod if it is possible,  or whether you just change the title of the thread (in the first post)

[Sithlord75]

Proving once again that RMWeb seems to answer most obscure questions I too am interested in modelling the D341 Orchard van for exactly the same reasons - I'm building a model of St Albans Abbey (albeit in 2mm scale) and I'm applying the rule one option that anything which would have gone down either branch, would ultimately be shunted at StA for return to the junction from whence it originated - either by virtue of trains leaving StA direct for said junctions or by virtue of trains shunting on the way back having arrived direct from said junctions (with the logic that there'd hardly be traffic from say Bricket Wood to St Alban's and vice versa).  So if any further information has come to light, I'd love to hear about it.  I have been unsuccessful in finding a drawing to organise my own 2mm scale etch so that would be a fabulous start if someone could point me at same.