Correct 'Green' for GWR/BR 1960's Castle loco

[Staffordshire]

   Excuse what may seem a very basic question regarding the Livery for  a  BR(W) Castle loco ...

 

     I am having a GWR/BR castle loco built in 1960's condition,   I  would like to know what is

the correct 'green' to paint the loco ?

  

    Seems to me, original GWR Green was 'lighter'  than the Green used in later (1960s) repaints of

the GWR/BR Castle and other express locos ??

 

    Please clarify.

 

    Many thanks, Ian

 

 

 

[DCB]

Swindon mixed their own paint so I believe the spec remained the same as the post war GWR green but there may have been variations.  Equally the colour of the undercoat would have had an effect on the finished colour as would the number of coats, I believe the GWR used two coats of top coat post 1923 plus varnish, again that affects the hue.

I think the chief difference is the green running plate angle which a) looks wrong, and b) makes the overall colour look lighter. Hornby Dublo used a black running plate on their Castle and I suspect quite a few sheds didn't clean the running plate angle letting it Matt down to grime colour.

Obviously the lining was different between GW and BR, The cab had a panel below the window in BR days and the rear of the tender was not lined for two variations.

There are a variety of hues produced by model paint  suppliers, none quite as awful as the colour Hornby has used at times.    A lot of the issue is the lighting conditions, the lightest of the available colours in shadow is darker than the darkest is in bright sunlight. I would suggest picking a colour and sticking to it as I can't believe there was any significant difference between locos running together in period. Lets face it you wouldn't see a pre 1900  4-2-2 running with a 94XX, and any paint samples from the 4-2-2 would have been 40 years old when the 94XX came out.  Contrary to what other people say I believe Rover Brooklands green is nothing like right for BR Green and there is more variation between batches of BR Loco green than between BR green and pre 1923 GWR green by the same well known supplier. 

I think the chief difference is the green running plate angle which a) looks wrong, and b) makes the overall colour look lighter. Hornby Dublo used a black running plate on their Castle and I suspect quite a few sheds didn't clean the running plate angle.

Obviously the lining was different between GW and BR, The cab had a panel below the window in BR days and the rear of the tender was not lined for two variations.

Edited October 31, 2022 by DCB

[Harlequin]

When BR eventually settled on a standard green colour they replicated GWR loco green but the paint technology was different. Whereas the GWR mixed their paints from pigments, thinners and drying agents (and applied coats of varnish on top), the BR version was a modern synthetic paint which was not so prone to fading or the effects of repeated heating and cooling.

 

So when trying to represent BR loco green you’re on slightly firmer ground than GWR loco green.

The BR green is sometimes called “Brunswick Green” (which is often thought to be an invention of Hornby but is mentioned in some authoritative literature) or “Deep Bronze Green”.

 

Precision Paints should make a good match because they have seen the original BR and GWR sample boards.

https://www.phoenix-paints.co.uk/products/paint-products/precisionrailway/nationalised/steam-loco-colours/p101

 

You may need to test some different shades before you commit because it may not look right at reduced scale on your particular loco.

 

See “Great Western Way” published by the HMRS, which includes example colour swatches.

 

Also,

http://www.gwr.org.uk/liveriesloco1948.html

 

https://www.ianrathbonemodelpainting.co.uk/br-western-region-locomotive-liveries.php

 

P.S. Note that the shade of Chrome Orange used in lining also varied between pre-war and BR days.

 

Edited October 31, 2022 by Harlequin

[Hal Nail]

The problem with asking about colour on here is you will get 50 different suggestions and little context.

 

Your best bet, if possible, is to find a model that looks convincing to you and ask what paint and weathering they used.

 

Another thing seldom mentioned is the impact of the finish. I flatten off paint with 2000 grade wet and dry and then polish with kitchen roll and you end up with a much deeper rich colour even though its exactly the same paint.

 

You can see the effect here to some extent just on a dubious factory colour.

 

 

Edited October 31, 2022 by Hal Nail

[Bernard Lamb]

3 hours ago, Harlequin said:

 

The BR green is sometimes called “Brunswick Green” (which is often thought to be an invention of Hornby but is mentioned in some authoritative literature) or “Deep Bronze Green”.

 

Precision Paints should make a good match because they have seen the original BR and GWR sample boards.

 

 

 

https://www.phoenix-paints.co.uk/products/paint-products/precisionrailway/nationalised/steam-loco-colours/p101

 

 

 

Brunswick Green has been around for far longer than Hornby.

Deep Bronze Green is a very different animal.

Middle Bronze Green would be nearer and If you look at BS381C you will see that Phoenix are pretty close.

As you say, they should be.

The Phoenix shade looks good enough to me as a starting point.

Bernard

[The Johnster]

Piece of string question; the answers already given will be as close to objective as you can get.  Colour does not 'scale down' and the smallish area of green displayed on a 4mm Castle will not look exactly the same as the green on a real Castle, and there are probably several different shades and tones used by the owners of real Castles.  Even the lettering or totem on the tender makes a subjective difference; locos with the unicycling lion or shirtbutton totems 'look' lighter to me because there is greater expanse of green presented to one's eye.  Ambient lighting has an effect as well; the green on a Hornby Duble Castle, for example, was probably selected to look right under the warm cast of filament household lighting, but looked wrong to me because of the overscale lining.  More variety is introduced by the finish, matt, semi-matt, gloss, or high gloss making things look progressively darker.

 

Then you need to factor in reproductions of colour photos, swatch samples, and the like, altered by photo processing and then further altered (possibly corrected, possibly not) by computer interpretation, and printer ink.  Trematon Castle, as repainted by Caerphilly Works in 1958, looked a good bit brighter and glossier than Swindon output at the same time because Caerphilly used more undercoat and several more top coats, a better quality job all round.  Then you've got the 1942-5 and post-war austerity (which lasted into the early 50s) periods when paint was not always easy to obtain and undercoat as rare as RHS; paint shops had to do thier best with whatever was to hand.  My approach is that if if looks about right, that'll do, even real locos in the same livery looked different from each other because of the time they had been in traffic and the inevitable paint fade.

[Mallard60022]

Depends if you want an Ex Works finish? If not don't worry too much because after 1963 most Castles, except 'pets' and those prepped for Specials, were pretty filthy. Sorry.

Phil 

[Hal Nail]

These threads always end up covering the same ground but since the OP was asking what green to start with, I would also agree with Precision. 

 

There were variations in appearance for all the reasons given but if you want a good looking model, it isn't irrelevant what base colour you start with, in my opinion. 

[Hroth]

41 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

Depends if you want an Ex Works finish? If not don't worry too much because after 1963 most Castles, except 'pets' and those prepped for Specials, were pretty filthy. Sorry.

Phil 

 

By the end of steam in all regions, the livery would be a variation on 50 shades of filth, no matter what it left the paint shop in...

 

Find colour loco photos of the period you want to match and choose a paint colour you're happy with.

[The Johnster]

To the extent that, by the time steam finished on the WR in 1965, there were locos in better external state in Dai Woodhams' scrap yard than there were in service.