The Sinews of War, French Channel Port, 1917

[Schooner]

22 hours ago, Edwardian said:

I can, perhaps should, feature both comprehensively sheeted tank loads

 

17 hours ago, Edwardian said:

...some very expansive Bachmann Parrots and any old Mainline GWR bogie bolsters that can be strengthened. 

 

How big is this diorama going to be?!

[Edwardian]

4 minutes ago, Schooner said:

 

 

How big is this diorama going to be?!

 

It's going to start small and either stay small or grow in length. It should remain simple. The advantage of a dock scene is that one can always make it longer should time or opportunity permit.

 

I am tempted to make the scene pointless, just feeding stock in onto parallel inset tracks emerging from behind buildings flanking the scene, like theatre wings.

[Northroader]

I don’t think it will be over by Christmas.

 

 

[drmditch]

2 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

It's going to start small and either stay small or grow in length. It should remain simple. The advantage of a dock scene is that one can always make it longer should time or opportunity permit.

 

I am tempted to make the scene pointless, just feeding stock in onto parallel inset tracks emerging from behind buildings flanking the scene, like theatre wings.

 

It is a nuisance when words change their meaning, or become associated with additional ones.

Should it be 'pointless' or 'switchless' ?

 

Are you going to base your dock on any particular prototype?

A web search on the Richborough WW1 Port does produce a considerable amount of pictures and text.

No sheeted tanks in a quick scan but they were apparently shipped from there.

 

How many ports in the UK had the craneage or capacity to cope with tanks?

[Caley Jim]

39 minutes ago, drmditch said:

 

It is a nuisance when words change their meaning, or become associated with additional ones.

Should it be 'pointless' or 'switchless' ?

Depends on whether you are PW or S&T. 

 

Jim 

[Edwardian]

2 hours ago, drmditch said:

 

It is a nuisance when words change their meaning, or become associated with additional ones.

Should it be 'pointless' or 'switchless' ?

 

Pun intended, I'm afraid

 

2 hours ago, drmditch said:

Are you going to base your dock on any particular prototype?

 

No. I could, but to make it a small scene (which it will be even if extended in time) and to justify the full variety of wartime traffic - the sinews of war from sacks of flour to trains of tanks -  I have elected to make it "essence of Channel port"

 

 

2 hours ago, drmditch said:

A web search on the Richborough WW1 Port does produce a considerable amount of pictures and text.

 

Which would be good. With a train ferry and the Hattons' Ps in wartime livery shunting, it could be very good. 

 

But, I have elected the French side of the Channel, so I have an excuse to try to capture French architecture and mix British and Continental stock. I get no end of pleasure in contemplating the perversity of modelling Continental stock in 1/76th scale, OO gauge!

 

2 hours ago, drmditch said:

No sheeted tanks in a quick scan but they were apparently shipped from there.

 

We can certainly see them on the ferries that ran to Calais.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, drmditch said:

How many ports in the UK had the craneage or capacity to cope with tanks?

 

I think the first train ferry commenced service in 1917. I think the ships were NE-built, by the way. 

 

So, there was an issue with the first tanks, sent out to fight on the Somme in 1916. These had to be craned into ships. The crews departed via Southampton, but that port lacked a suitable crane, I read, so the tanks went out via Avonmouth. Where they disembarked I don't think I've read.

 

With the advent of the train ferries, they were loaded in England, driven off ramps or loading dock, and could then travel right through to the Front, where massive wooden ramps were constructed to let them drive off and on again after deployment.  This was how the unprecedented concentration of 476 tanks for the Battle of Cambrai in November 1917 appears to have been achieved. 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 17, 2022 by Edwardian
geography

[Caley Jim]

Re my earlier post on not being able to find a photo of a CR 'Jumbo' in ROD service.   While looking for something else, I came across one in 'Caledonian Railway Locomotives - the Classic Years'.  Ironically, it's of No 337, a model of which I recently completed using a photo earlier in the book for reference!

 

 

 

Jim

 

Jim

[Dana Ashdown]

On 16/11/2022 at 18:39, Edwardian said:

The cardboard modeller in me, however, is intrigued by the thought of trying scratch-builds in that medium. It would be a lot cheaper!

Not only cheaper, but perhaps more sensible if you plan to sheet them over.

[Compound2632]

36 minutes ago, Dana Ashdown said:

Not only cheaper, but perhaps more sensible if you plan to sheet them over.

 

Well, be careful what you say: James' skill as a cardboard modeller has been demonstrated to be such that suggesting that his handiwork should be hidden from sight might be taken the wrong way!

 

But I know what you mean - a simple carboard outline, sheeted over, would be more sensible than an expensive 3D print, sheeted over.

[Northroader]

[woodenhead]

5 minutes ago, Northroader said:

Look how strong they were back then, must have been a good healthy diet 😄

[Hroth]

2 hours ago, Northroader said:

 

At what might possibly be the future site of Triangs Margate factory, a decoy tank is readied for Operation Fortitude. The soldiers had to ensure they filled the tank from the compressed air cylinders, rather than those for the barrage balloons. It could be that something had gone wrong...

 

Slightly more on topic, I noticed this complementary layout elsewhere in RMWeb, further up the line from the de-embarkation* port.

 

 

* Or do you say debarkation?  Oh well, two for the price of one!

 

Edited November 19, 2022 by Hroth
New info...

[Edwardian]

22 hours ago, Caley Jim said:

Re my earlier post on not being able to find a photo of a CR 'Jumbo' in ROD service.   While looking for something else, I came across one in 'Caledonian Railway Locomotives - the Classic Years'.  Ironically, it's of No 337, a model of which I recently completed using a photo earlier in the book for reference!

 

 

 

Jim

 

Jim

 

Is that what we are seeing here?

 

A tender class with a rear toolbox, though I'm not convinced.

 

 

On reflection, I think that the tanks would have been off loaded at some depot between the port and the frontline staging area. It is there they would have been prepared for the journey to the Front, becoming un-sheeted or partially sheeted, gaining fascines, being armed and fuelled etc.

 

With this in mind, I finished off the Hopefully-French-looking-industrial-building for the port and invested in a Bachmann Parrot with sheeted tank. I have to say, it's a quality model that is surprisingly heavy. The sheeted tank is a really lovely item in itself and attached via a magnet. However, a train of these would bankrupt me, but it gives me something to shunt around the diorama pending building any stock. 

 

[Caley Jim]

1 hour ago, Edwardian said:

 

Is that what we are seeing here?

 

A tender class with a rear toolbox, though I'm not convinced.

 

It' certainly a possibility.  Rear toolbox, curved corners with a handrail on them, straight flare going round the corner, step on the tender frame in the correct position.  Not sure what that is on top of the rear flare, but it could be some ROD fitting mounted on the rear lamp bracket.  From what little I can see, there's nothing to say it's definitely not a Jumbo.  I'm not well enough up on NBR tenders to be able to say whether it could be a Class C (J36) as it has a Drummond look to it.

 

Jim

[drmditch]

13 hours ago, Hroth said:

 

 

Slightly more on topic, I noticed this complementary layout elsewhere in RMWeb, further up the line from the de-embarkation* port.

 

 

* Or do you say debarkation?  Oh well, two for the price of one!

 

 

Isn't the word 'disembark' ?

[Nearholmer]

I thought that was what deer did to saplings.

[St Enodoc]

On 16/11/2022 at 23:53, Edwardian said:

 

 

 

Saw a demo of a more modern version of that at the final Longmoor open day in July 1969.

[Hroth]

40 minutes ago, drmditch said:

 

Isn't the word 'disembark' ?

 

It could be, though I'm sure I've heard of at least one of the others...

 

[Mikkel]

On 16/11/2022 at 17:23, Edwardian said:

Source of tanks?

 

For Autumn 1917, when for various reasons, the model is notionally set, I would need Mark IVs.

 

Airfix do a Mark I ostensibly in 1/76, though one is never quite sure with these early kits, and Emhar do Mark IVs, but in 1/72nd, which will not do when trying to marry them to 1/76th scale railway wagons. 

 

Hmm.

 

The Bachmann sheeted Mark IV/V (presumably), scales out fine in terms of length. There are plenty of Mark IV drawings available online (and I've sent for the Osprey volume as it was available for under £4) that I can scale, but if I wanted a train of 12 Mark IVs en route to the Front, would I have to scratch-build them?

 

Possibly not. Wargamers have a scale, used typically for WW1 and WW2 called "20mm". For the sane among you, the stated measurement is the notional figure height from boot sole to eye level. 

 

This imprecise method makes the wargame scale of 20mm approximately 1/76. 

 

If scaling a vehicle for this figure scale, I'd go with 1/76 anyway.

 

This, I was interested to see these:

 

Female:

 

Male:

 

OK, so these examples are printed out to 15mm scale (!), but the website advertises a 1/76th scale version and offers the option to go-big if 1/72nd is your preference. I might, therefore, send off for one on spec and see if it does truly scale to 1/76. 

 

If it does, then future life might hold a lot of sanding of these very stratified 3D print, some very expansive Bachmann Parrots and any old Mainline GWR bogie bolsters that can be strengthened. 

 

Then again, I cannot represent retracted or partially retracted sponsons with a 3D print, so, scratchbuilding it is!

 

Maybe later ....

 

You may be interested in Matt's tanks:

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/150484-chippenham-the-work-bench/?do=findComment&comment=4988036

 

 

[Edwardian]

6 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

 

You may be interested in Matt's tanks:

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/150484-chippenham-the-work-bench/?do=findComment&comment=4988036

 

 

 

Thank you. Those are superb, and Mark IVs to boot. I cannot see where the provenance of these models is explained, however. Matt's topic is new to me, but seems well worth visiting.

 

As I understand it, the rationale is Swindon-built tanks travelling to Avonmouth.  I suspect these would have been sheeted, however.

 

Whether this is a reference to the tanks bound for the Somme referenced earlier, therefore not Mark IVs, or whether further batches of tanks, including Mark IVs in 1917, used this route because the train ferries were not yet operational is not stated.

 

Anyway, much as I'd love to replicate those Cambrai trains of MarkIVs, as I say, I think the prepping of the tanks would tank place at a RTR depot somewhere between the port of embarkation and the railhead behind the Front from which they drove to the battlefield.  Thus, I think sheeted tanks is the way for me to go and I'm currently thinking of just one or two for shunting moves.

 

So, Brother Schooner questioned the dimensions. I'm currently considering 4'/48" x 21". 21" because that allows a board to be taken through a domestic doorway without tilting and with room for hands either side. The idea is that buildings, acting like theatrical wings, will shield a foot or so of stock that then emerge from behind them. There is a generous open space between, which will allow men and materiel to be assembled. I will also lay tracks in the foreground, but these are likely to be cosmetic for now. 

 

So, need, not necessarily in order:

 

(1) Some freight stock (French)

(2) Second building

(3) Baseboard and track

(4) Raid on WD Models for figures and trucks

(5) Scratch-build a couple of Fodens

(6) Ship(s)

[Hroth]

1 hour ago, Edwardian said:

So, need, not necessarily in order:

 

(1) Some freight stock (French)

(2) Second building

(3) Baseboard and track

(4) Raid on WD Models for figures and trucks

(5) Scratch-build a couple of Fodens

(6) Ship(s)

 

Possibly

1. building #2
2. baseboard and lay track (but not t'other way round...).

The rest is just population of the scene, so can go at a pace governed by external events*.

 

Good luck!

 

 

* Its just 30ish shopping days to Christmas!  I won't mention the Association Football World Cup...

 

[Schooner]

35 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

So, Brother Schooner questioned the dimensions.

I was more questioning the need/space for tanks shown in two different states, and the amount of stock being suggested! The latest update sounds ideal all round.

 

Re 6) Are you thinking quayside front or back? Looking for resources for a potential future project of my own, I came across these ship plans today which could be of use: Big (three-island), Medium (screw schooner/raised quarterdeck), Small (single hatch), Paddle Tug! I've dropped Sarik a line to ask what the options are for re-scaling and/or digital copies, will revert if anything useful comes back.

[Edwardian]

29 minutes ago, Schooner said:

I was more questioning the need/space for tanks shown in two different states, and the amount of stock being suggested! The latest update sounds ideal all round.

 

Re 6) Are you thinking quayside front or back? Looking for resources for a potential future project of my own, I came across these ship plans today which could be of use: Big (three-island), Medium (screw schooner/raised quarterdeck), Small (single hatch), Paddle Tug! I've dropped Sarik a line to ask what the options are for re-scaling and/or digital copies, will revert if anything useful comes back.

 

I was thinking of having the dockside at the rear, leaving the option of ships as the ultimate backdrop.

 

As one of the shorter hospital ships identified so far on Channel service would scale at 4', that would need to be a bitsa ship. I suspect a reasonably short merchant coaster would be best.

[Hroth]

2 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

 

I was thinking of having the dockside at the rear, leaving the option of ships as the ultimate backdrop.

 

As one of the shorter hospital ships identified so far on Channel service would scale at 4', that would need to be a bitsa ship. I suspect a reasonably short merchant coaster would be best.

 

Part of a "small" coaster unloading root vegetables, the sort of stuff to feed to livestock or troops....

 

[Edwardian]

6 minutes ago, Hroth said:

 

Part of a "small" coaster unloading root vegetables, the sort of stuff to feed to livestock or troops....

 

 

Or flour ....