2 more Hornby 8XP's join the stable.

[cypherman]

Hi all,

2 more engines have just joined my stable. Got them at a good price and am very happy with them. They needed a clean and a service, but both now run well. I have shown a picture of the front footplate of these engines because they are different to each other. Can anyone tell me when this changed happened in the real world. Or have Hornby made an error.

[pH]

(4)6251 and (4)6253 were from different construction batches. 6251 was built in 1944 and 6253 in 1946. As you can see from these photos, Hornby have got the footplates correct:
 

https://flic.kr/p/daERrn

https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/382172718355303141/

The changes in footplating on the Duchesses are a bit complicated - streamlined engines, non-streamlined, different construction batches (and 46242). There’s not a single date for a change between ‘curved drop end’ and ‘no drop end’ or vice versa.

Edited November 12, 2022 by pH

[Ruffnut Thorston]

So, as I recall.

 

The "curved drop" footplates were all built as non Streamline locos.

 

The last two of these conventional locos, built with Ivatt's modifications, had what some call the "utility" front end to the footplate.

 

This type of footplate was used on the Streamline locos when they had the casings removed.

 

ᚱᚢᚠᚠᚾᚢᛏ × ᛏᚼᚬᚱᛋᛏᚬᚾ

🐉🙋🏼‍♀️

 

[pH]

17 minutes ago, Ruffnut Thorston said:

The "curved drop" footplates were all built as non Streamline locos.

Except 46242 after Harrow, which is why I mentioned it specifically in my previous post.

 

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrns1629.htm

[Pete the Elaner]

I can add a little more to that..

6220-6229 & 6235-6248 were built streamlined. When the casing was removed, they had the split 'utility' front footplate. They also has a sloped top to the front of the smokebox which gave them the nickname of 'semis' for semi-streamlined, but they were all given conventionally shaped smokeboxes in the 1950s. All got given smoke deflectors when their streamlined casings were removed.

6230-6234 & 6249-6252 were built as non-streamlined, had the curved front footplate & no smoke deflectors.

6220-6234 were all built with single chimneys but 6234 was soon fitted with a double. This was a success so 6235 onwards were all. built with a double & the earlier ones were all given them during the war.

6253-6255 were built non-streamlined with a utility front & smoke deflectors.

6256 & 46257 were built to a modified design with the utility front, a squared off bottom section of the cab & smoke deflectors. 6256 was the last of the class built under the LMS.

 

There is 1 oddity. 46242 City of Glasgow was badly damaged in the Harrow & Wealdstone disaster in 1952. It was an ex-streamliner so had the utility front. It was 'rebuilt' with a curved front end. The rebuild was actually a hybrid of 46242 & 46202 Princess Anne.

[Pete the Elaner]

7 minutes ago, pH said:

Except 46242 after Harrow, which is why I mentioned it specifically in my previous post.

 

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrns1629.htm

 

You beat me to that! 😀

[cypherman]

Thank you all for clearing up this for me.

[Pete the Elaner]

15 hours ago, cypherman said:

Thank you all for clearing up this for me.

I've got a bit of a soft spot for the class so I have built a spreadsheet containing to the nearest month details of:

Build dates

Livery changes

Addition of deflectors

Conversion to double chimney

Removal of streamline casing

Dates for name number swap for 6220 & 6229

 

It finishes with nationalisation though 😀 so does not contain any record of 46257. I compiled it from several sources & with the changes being 75-85 years ago, I am sure there are a few errors.

[railroadbill]

I'd got my reference books on LMS 4-6-2s out but too late!  It seems to me that Hornby have actually produced   models  of each  variant, streamlined, not streamlined, (single and double chimney, with/without smoke deflectors),  de-streamlined (semi and later smokebox) and the Ivatt pair.  Have I missed any? I don't have a streamlined one but did Hornby make both single and double chimney variants of those?

[Steamport Southport]

2 minutes ago, railroadbill said:

I'd got my reference books on LMS 4-6-2s out but too late!  It seems to me that Hornby have actually produced   models  of each  variant, streamlined, not streamlined, (single and double chimney, with/without smoke deflectors),  de-streamlined (semi and later smokebox) and the Ivatt pair.  Have I missed any? I don't have a streamlined one but did Hornby make both single and double chimney variants of those?

 

Yes.

 

Something to watch out for if you want to run a blue one with the Coronation Scot coaches as the coaches went into storage during the war and when the coaches reappeared they were painted LMS post war crimson and were no longer kept in the sets. By that time the locos had all received the double chimneys and were no longer blue, being red or black.

 

So for the CS you really need a single chimney version.

 

As for references try here. Might be a few mistakes but nothing glaringly obvious.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LMS_Coronation_Class

 

 

Jason

[Pete the Elaner]

23 minutes ago, railroadbill said:

I'd got my reference books on LMS 4-6-2s out but too late!  It seems to me that Hornby have actually produced   models  of each  variant, streamlined, not streamlined, (single and double chimney, with/without smoke deflectors),  de-streamlined (semi and later smokebox) and the Ivatt pair.  Have I missed any? I don't have a streamlined one but did Hornby make both single and double chimney variants of those?

 

If you've written a book, I am sure you have done more research on them than me, but I don't think you (or Hornby) have missed any.

 

8 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Yes.

 

Something to watch out for if you want to run a blue one with the Coronation Scot coaches as the coaches went into storage during the war and when the coaches reappeared they were painted LMS post war crimson and were no longer kept in the sets. By that time the locos had all received the double chimneys and were no longer blue, being red or black.

 

So for the CS you really need a single chimney version.

 

As for references try here. Might be a few mistakes but nothing glaringly obvious.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LMS_Coronation_Class

 

 

Jason

 

Definitely a single chimney version for the CS. According to my records, the last to be fitted with a double was 6220 & it was black by then. All the others had them fitted while painted in red or blue.

My records also show that 6240 City of Coventry was the only streamliner to remain in red after 1944, being painted black in October/November.

 

I remember speaking to an older gentleman at a show c2018 who described the time his father took him to work in Bedford Shed during the war. He remembers a big blue loco being parked inside. He realises now that this was one of the first 5 Coronations in store but as a 5 year old, he took more interest in the pot of sweets by the front door.  😊

[johnhutnick]

Based on the discussion so far, many here know more than me on the Duchesses. 

I have attached a photo of an O scale boiler,  which shows upside down even though I have turned it.  Can someone please tell me which locos this is appropriate for.  It came with Atholl plates, but that may not mean anything.

Thanks for any help.

[pH]

It’s a non-streamlined Duchess. Double chimney, outside steam  chests, covers for the inside valve spindle ends, and oval buffers. “Non-streamlined” because of the curved footplate drop-ends.

 

So it would be appropriate for 46231 ‘Duchess of Atholl’.

Edited November 14, 2022 by pH

[Pete the Elaner]

On 14/11/2022 at 22:32, pH said:

It’s a non-streamlined Duchess. Double chimney, outside steam  chests, covers for the inside valve spindle ends, and oval buffers. “Non-streamlined” because of the curved footplate drop-ends.

 

So it would be appropriate for 46231 ‘Duchess of Atholl’.

 

Yes, suitable for Atholl.

It was built in June 38 with a single chimney, no deflectors & carried Crimson Lake livery.

Double chimney was fitted in June 1940.

It was painted wartime plain black in February 1944, the only one of the initial non-streamliners to carry plain black.

Deflectors were added in September 1946.

Edited November 16, 2022 by Pete the Elaner
Added something extra.

[Il Grifone]

The Dublo model was 'historical' when released (1948 IIRC)